The "i'm not interested" international friendlies thread

[soggy biscuit]

If we are always around 8th-12th best in the world then last 16 would be about right for us with 1/4 final being somewhat of an achievement.

Past 5 WC's were - last 16, QF, last 16, SF, QF
Past 5 EC's were - QF, DNQ, QF, Group, SF

1 underachieving DNQ balanced out against 1 overachieving SF in '90 and we are just about (the group exit being the exception) getting the results that our world placing suggests we should then?

[stealthpapes]

The results are always just good enough so that people can say things like "yeah, but in 2010, they came out of the group unbeaten and it was only because Frank had a goal disallowed that Germany hammered us".

And it's kind of true, but misses the point by such a huge margin that you wonder how drunk they were for the first two games of that tournament.

[Hoop Blah]

The means of our failure, and that element of 'results just being good enough' is the crux of it I agree.

I don't agree that the other top nations are consistently that far ahead of us and that we're closer to the likes of Ukraine (currently 18th), Denmark (20th), Bosnia (17th), Algeria (26th), Armenia (30th) or Slovenia (27th).

We're not as flamboyant, full of flair or perhaps as attractive to watch as the best all the time, but we've always done well enough against them to indicate that we're close enough to them. The same can be said of Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Argentina or even the Brazilians at times.

I think it comes down to a certain element of holding our own side to a greater level of scrutiny and expectation than others.

[Royalclapper]

Yes there is always the element of being too forensic with our own national set up, which is probably similar in most of the major footballing countries. Italy's fans and media are notorious for it and crucify them when The Azzurri has a shocker.

Then there's that haunting record that looms over England which puts things in some perspective in that we've never beaten a major nation in knock out football away from our own shores. It helps to highlight that we're decent but are always found wanting against those perceived to be the countries we''ll need to beat if we're ever to rise above our natural historical level - granted, we've only been a penalty shoot out away from doing so, but it's a sobering record all the same.

[Hoop Blah]

Then there's that haunting record that looms over England which puts things in some perspective in that we've never beaten a major nation in knock out football away from our own shores. It helps to highlight that we're decent but are always found wanting against those perceived to be the countries we''ll need to beat if we're ever to rise above our natural historical level - granted, we've only been a penalty shoot out away from doing so, but it's a sobering record all the same.

We've beaten Argentina a couple of times, and France. Don't they count?

We've only been beaten a few times as well, but as you say, we've come up short by not winning enough of them and certainly with our record in penalty shoot outs.

[From Despair To Where?]

The results are always just good enough so that people can say things like "yeah, but in 2010, they came out of the group unbeaten and it was only because Frank had a goal disallowed that Germany hammered us".

And it's kind of true, but misses the point by such a huge margin that you wonder how drunk they were for the first two games of that tournament.

Or such and such getting sent off. There is usually an element of bad luck involved in England's exits but, as the saying sort of goes, the better teams make their own luck.

Lets be honest though, in 2010, the performance against Germany was very much in keeping with the way England had played in the group tournament and the scoreline was hardly an unfair reflection of the game.

[Royalclapper]

Then there's that haunting record that looms over England which puts things in some perspective in that we've never beaten a major nation in knock out football away from our own shores. It helps to highlight that we're decent but are always found wanting against those perceived to be the countries we''ll need to beat if we're ever to rise above our natural historical level - granted, we've only been a penalty shoot out away from doing so, but it's a sobering record all the same.

We've beaten Argentina a couple of times, and France. Don't they count?

We've only been beaten a few times as well, but as you say, we've come up short by not winning enough of them and certainly with our record in penalty shoot outs.

They were in group matches not the knock out stages. Admirable wins nonetheless but not the real deal.

[Ian Royal]

Then there's that haunting record that looms over England which puts things in some perspective in that we've never beaten a major nation in knock out football away from our own shores. It helps to highlight that we're decent but are always found wanting against those perceived to be the countries we''ll need to beat if we're ever to rise above our natural historical level - granted, we've only been a penalty shoot out away from doing so, but it's a sobering record all the same.

We've beaten Argentina a couple of times, and France. Don't they count?

We've only been beaten a few times as well, but as you say, we've come up short by not winning enough of them and certainly with our record in penalty shoot outs.

They were in group matches not the knock out stages. Admirable wins nonetheless but not the real deal.

How many knock out games have we played in the last 20 or 30 years and how many were against a major nation?

It can't really be many games.

[Sanguine]

Interesting* article that (rightly, imho) questions the appointments of the likes of Beck and Boothroyd into the England setup give the different direction our football has been moving in.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... en-gerrard

[Hoop Blah]

They were in group matches not the knock out stages. Admirable wins nonetheless but not the real deal.

How many knock out games have we played in the last 20 or 30 years and how many were against a major nation?

It can't really be many games.

I didn't really notice the bit where the games had to be knock-out games, which does limit it a bit.

I think we've probably lost 4 or 5 times since the first World Cup to 'major nations'. We've obviously drawn a fair few times as well and usually end up going out on penalites on those occasions.

The record is probably something like P8 W0 D4 L4, with the 4 loses resulting in being knocked out because we can't win a shoot out.

[Royalclapper]

England's record in tournaments (in which we've obviously qualified) at the knock out stage and away from our own shores using 1966 as the base year:

Euro '68 - SF Lost to Yugoslavia (only 4 teams involved)

WC '70 - QF Lost to West Germany

WC '86 - QF Lost to Argentina

WC '90 - SF Lost to West Germany (pens)

WC '98 - 2nd Round Lost to Argentina (pens)

WC 2002 - QF Lost to Brazil

Euro 2004 - QF Lost to Portugal (pens)

WC 2006 - QF Lost to Portugal (pens)

WC 2010 - 2nd Round Lost to Germany

Euro 2012 - QF Lost to Italy (pens)

Spain '82 we went out in the 2nd Group stage as it was then so can't really be included, the rest we got eliminated in the Group Stages.

[Hoop Blah]

If we'd turned a few of those draws into wins on pens we'd have a much better record.

It is a little odd that in 8 or 9 attempts we've not beaten one of the 'big boys' during the knockout phases. I wonder what France or Germany's records are like? Obviously a little better!

[stealthpapes]

Interesting* article that (rightly, imho) questions the appointments of the likes of Beck and Boothroyd into the England setup give the different direction our football has been moving in.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... en-gerrard

Beck gets a bit of a rough deal, imo. He was well into the sports science stuff a good decade before most and his approach with Cambridge, while brutal, took them to a play off defeat, just a few steps from the first Premiership season. From what I've read, yes, his football was basic but he looked at the problem - win football games with a minimum of spend - and came up with some innovative solutions.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... a-coaching is the linked article and some of the comments add the detail that the main article missed. Two are added below.

Not sure what the purpose of it is. You could have highlighted how John Beck used nutritionists, dieticians, psychology, specialist fitness coaches, statisticians - all those things that today are taken for granted, but 20-odd years ago were unheard of in the English game... and certainly not in the 4th Division.

...

He took a team of no-hope, has been, never will be, rejects from other clubs and took a club that was going nowhere in the 4th to the verge of the Prem - oh and scaring the shit out of some of our supposed betters on the way (ask Arsenal fans about the FA Cup 1/4 final at Highbury...)

Yes we were direct. We got the ball out wide to two pacy wingers and with a converted centre-half up front (Dion Dublin) and John Taylor in the hole we basically scored goals for fun... It's true that in his last full season the style became a little more extreme, but you know - we were this close to pulling it off. I bet that Blackburn Rovers breathed a sigh of relief that they only had to face Leicester rather than ourselves at Wembley, It's funny how we went from being "plucky" Cambridge to the Anti-Christ, the closer it looked like we might gate crash the FA's new golden child (and hasn't that done wonders for our national team?)

Beck was an innovator as well as a tyrant. We played Arsenal in the second of our successive FA Cup quarter-final appearances at Arsenal in 1991. On Match of the Day that night much was made of our pre-match warm up involving cones, mini games, training drills, bibs etc... What is now standard at most levels of football was first seen in the UK as a result of Beck. He implemented the first nutrition/weight based training programme for any team in the days when the Champions of England were an alcoholic Arsenal side. When CUFC went to Lilleshall for a pre-season training day our squad, almost to a man, exceeded the fitness levels of the national team. That's how ahead of that side of the game Beck was. Football is not just pretty triangles at the Nou Camp.

[stealthpapes]

If we'd turned a few of those draws into wins on pens we'd have a much better record.

It is a little odd that in 8 or 9 attempts we've not beaten one of the 'big boys' during the knockout phases. I wonder what France or Germany's records are like? Obviously a little better!

France obviously have the wonderful ability to completely implode in the qualifying/group stages of a world cup - 94, 02 and 10 but then, in the world cups between those, they won one and reached the final of the other.

[stealthpapes]

England's record in tournaments (in which we've obviously qualified) at the knock out stage and away from our own shores using 1966 as the base year:

Euro '68 - SF Lost to Yugoslavia (only 4 teams involved)

WC '70 - QF Lost to West Germany

WC '86 - QF Lost to Argentina

WC '90 - SF Lost to West Germany (pens)

WC '98 - 2nd Round Lost to Argentina (pens)

WC 2002 - QF Lost to Brazil

Euro 2004 - QF Lost to Portugal (pens)

WC 2006 - QF Lost to Portugal (pens)

WC 2010 - 2nd Round Lost to Germany

Euro 2012 - QF Lost to Italy (pens)

Spain '82 we went out in the 2nd Group stage as it was then so can't really be included, the rest we got eliminated in the Group Stages.

'82, '88 and '92 could arguably be quarterfinal equivalents.

[Hoop Blah]

If we'd turned a few of those draws into wins on pens we'd have a much better record.

It is a little odd that in 8 or 9 attempts we've not beaten one of the 'big boys' during the knockout phases. I wonder what France or Germany's records are like? Obviously a little better!

France obviously have the wonderful ability to completely implode in the qualifying/group stages of a world cup - 94, 02 and 10 but then, in the world cups between those, they won one and reached the final of the other.

Indeed, I'm not sure how much of that is just the freakish effect of having Zidane transform a generation in a way Platini couldn't quite carry the early 80's team all the way (not that both teams didn't have some excellent players backing them up).

[Whore Jackie]

Interesting* article that (rightly, imho) questions the appointments of the likes of Beck and Boothroyd into the England setup give the different direction our football has been moving in.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... en-gerrard

Beck gets a bit of a rough deal, imo. He was well into the sports science stuff a good decade before most and his approach with Cambridge, while brutal, took them to a play off defeat, just a few steps from the first Premiership season. From what I've read, yes, his football was basic but he looked at the problem - win football games with a minimum of spend - and came up with some innovative solutions.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... a-coaching is the linked article and some of the comments add the detail that the main article missed. Two are added below.

Not sure what the purpose of it is. You could have highlighted how John Beck used nutritionists, dieticians, psychology, specialist fitness coaches, statisticians - all those things that today are taken for granted, but 20-odd years ago were unheard of in the English game... and certainly not in the 4th Division.

...

He took a team of no-hope, has been, never will be, rejects from other clubs and took a club that was going nowhere in the 4th to the verge of the Prem - oh and scaring the shit out of some of our supposed betters on the way (ask Arsenal fans about the FA Cup 1/4 final at Highbury...)

Yes we were direct. We got the ball out wide to two pacy wingers and with a converted centre-half up front (Dion Dublin) and John Taylor in the hole we basically scored goals for fun... It's true that in his last full season the style became a little more extreme, but you know - we were this close to pulling it off. I bet that Blackburn Rovers breathed a sigh of relief that they only had to face Leicester rather than ourselves at Wembley, It's funny how we went from being "plucky" Cambridge to the Anti-Christ, the closer it looked like we might gate crash the FA's new golden child (and hasn't that done wonders for our national team?)

Beck was an innovator as well as a tyrant. We played Arsenal in the second of our successive FA Cup quarter-final appearances at Arsenal in 1991. On Match of the Day that night much was made of our pre-match warm up involving cones, mini games, training drills, bibs etc... What is now standard at most levels of football was first seen in the UK as a result of Beck. He implemented the first nutrition/weight based training programme for any team in the days when the Champions of England were an alcoholic Arsenal side. When CUFC went to Lilleshall for a pre-season training day our squad, almost to a man, exceeded the fitness levels of the national team. That's how ahead of that side of the game Beck was. Football is not just pretty triangles at the Nou Camp.

Revealing comments. Interestingly* I had the pleasure of listening to Keith Scott the other day and he was full of praise for how Tommy Burns approached that side of the game. He thought Burns was years ahead of his contemporaries. Pardew, when he took over, was much more basic in his processes.

[Hoop Blah]

England's record in tournaments (in which we've obviously qualified) at the knock out stage and away from our own shores using 1966 as the base year:

Euro '68 - SF Lost to Yugoslavia (only 4 teams involved)

WC '70 - QF Lost to West Germany

WC '86 - QF Lost to Argentina

WC '90 - SF Lost to West Germany (pens)

WC '98 - 2nd Round Lost to Argentina (pens)

WC 2002 - QF Lost to Brazil

Euro 2004 - QF Lost to Portugal (pens)

WC 2006 - QF Lost to Portugal (pens)

WC 2010 - 2nd Round Lost to Germany

Euro 2012 - QF Lost to Italy (pens)

Spain '82 we went out in the 2nd Group stage as it was then so can't really be included, the rest we got eliminated in the Group Stages.

That list does also go to show how luck and the rub of the green has to be with you to succeed (although i do subscribe to the view that the better you are the more 'luck' you get and the more you take it out of the equation).

1970, we really should've won that game from all I've seen and probably would've done if Banks wasn't ill
1986, beaten by the cheat
1990, woeful penalties yes, but unlucky not to beat them in normal time with that deflected goal
2002, freakish goal to beat Seaman from so far out BUT we should've done better against 10 men of course
2010, even though Germany ripped us apart at times (I've never seen an England team defend anywhere near as poorly) we also created some decent chances and should've been 2-2 with Lampards non-goal

Not making excuses, and it is a poor record at knockout football, but it could've been so different going back a long way.

[Royalclapper]

I think another point of interest that highlights England's standing is that other major football countries often beat other major nations on a semi-regular basis in order to reach semi-finals and finals etc. Whereas with England, they fudge, spoil and set-piece their way through a tournament until they meet a decent side and only then the brutal truth is exposed for all to see like running into a brick wall.

One caveat that is amusing among the International Big Guns is Italy's jinx over Germany, seemingly every time they meet. Can you imagine England turning up in the Cathedral of German football (Dortmund) without a care in the world and rolling them over via a late winner from a full back (Grosso) like in 2006! Then they did it again in 2012 when Germany looked like Finalists and modestly thought they would win it themselves

Yep, Italia '90 was the heartbreaker. We absolutely mugged Cameroon but were definitely the better side against Germany until that sickening goal looped in off Paul Parker. Argentina were there for the taking in the Final and with some better luck we'd have won that - apart from that though we're pretty much chokers without anywhere near enough International class players.

[Ian Royal]

If we'd turned a few of those draws into wins on pens we'd have a much better record.

It is a little odd that in 8 or 9 attempts we've not beaten one of the 'big boys' during the knockout phases. I wonder what France or Germany's records are like? Obviously a little better!

Didn't we have late chances to win it in a couple of those games? Argentina rings a bell. Could have turned draws into wins without the need for pens.