Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

5891 posts
User avatar
Who Moved The Goalposts?
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1011
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 08:23
Location: Tilehurst, 4 miles from heaven & hell

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Who Moved The Goalposts? » 28 Jan 2013 15:13

Alexander Litvinenko
Who Moved The Goalposts?
Alexander Litvinenko
BTW - the DCMS Committee into Football Governance report is issued at midnight tonight - it contains some very, very interesting stuff.


Most - if not all - of which will be ignored or brushed under the carpet, no doubt.


I don't think so - and I certainly hope not. They had the chance to do this by accepting the FA's initial response last year and didn't, and the tone of this latest report - and the ultimatum they give the FA - suggests that they are taking this properly seriously.


But do they have either the desire or the mandate to back it up with enforcable rules and/or sanctions?

EDIT: Forgot to add, I'm with you in hoping this is taken seriously, but history is not on my side with this.

User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 28 Jan 2013 16:40

Who Moved The Goalposts?
Alexander Litvinenko
Who Moved The Goalposts? Most - if not all - of which will be ignored or brushed under the carpet, no doubt.


I don't think so - and I certainly hope not. They had the chance to do this by accepting the FA's initial response last year and didn't, and the tone of this latest report - and the ultimatum they give the FA - suggests that they are taking this properly seriously.


But do they have either the desire or the mandate to back it up with enforcable rules and/or sanctions?

EDIT: Forgot to add, I'm with you in hoping this is taken seriously, but history is not on my side with this.


In the past I'd save said "no", but having read the report I think they are really serious about this and are frustrated at home many chances football has had to reform itself and has failed. If the FA doesn't reform within 12 months they'll introduce legislation, which is a pretty specific threat and a clear timeline.

User avatar
Silver Fox
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26862
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 10:02
Location: From the Andes to the indies in my undies

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Silver Fox » 28 Jan 2013 16:41

Won't FIFA then suspend us because of government interference in the football authorities?

User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 28 Jan 2013 16:43

Silver Fox Won't FIFA then suspend us because of government interference in the football authorities?


Not at all. There's a big difference between appointing people to a football authority and/or running it directly as a branch of government and putting legislation in place to ensure that the organisation is fit for purpose. A lot of the meat of the report is about ensuring openness and transparency, as well as FCR, which is more about company and insolvency law than anything else.

Barry the bird boggler
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8153
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 08:34
Location: in my bird boggler

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Barry the bird boggler » 29 Jan 2013 08:37

Anyone found a copy or know the "highlights" of what it says yet?


User avatar
TFF
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5321
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 09:17
Location: Running to the hills

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by TFF » 29 Jan 2013 09:02

Barry the bird boggler Anyone found a copy or know the "highlights" of what it says yet?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21238173

"We have been clear that we want the football authorities to carry out the reforms they promised by the start of the 2013-14 season - most notably around improved governance and diverse representation at the FA, the development of a licensing system and greater financial transparency.

"If football does not deliver then we will look at bringing forward legislation."


Doesn't really pack the punch I was expecting tbh

User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 29 Jan 2013 10:27

The whole press release does pack a bit more :

LEGISLATION NEEDED TO REFORM FOOTBALL IF CHANGES NOT MADE TO
GOVERNANCE OF GAME WITHIN 12 MONTHS, SAYS COMMITTEE
In a report published today, Tuesday 29 January 2013 the Commons Culture Media and Sport Committee issues an ultimatum to the game of English football: make the necessary reforms within 12 months or face possible legislation.

The Committee reported previously on domestic football governance in July 2011, after concerns were expressed by supporters and commentators about the sufficiency of checks and balances on financial management in football, as well as wider failures of governance.

The report concluded that the Football Association—English football’s governing body—was in need of urgent reform. The Committee said the leagues—especially the Premier League —had too great an influence over the decision-making processes of the Football Association. In particular the Committee was concerned that increasing commercialisation of the game, coupled with a lack of financial regulation, was leading to significant financial risk-taking among football clubs that threatens the game.

The Committee has been very disappointed by the football authorities' response to its proposals for reform, saying they failed to go far enough in addressing the problems the Committee identified.

John Whittingdale MP, Chair of the Committee, said: “While some progress has been achieved, much greater reform in football is needed to make the game inclusive, sustainable and driven from the grass roots, where it should be. The proposals for reform so far simply don't address the fundamental problems: the licensing model, the way supporters are engaged at club level and the membership of the Main Board, which is not fully representative or able to balance interests adequately.

“In addition, the financial proposals were hugely disappointing: the financial risk-taking by clubs is a threat to the sustainability of football as a family and community orientated game, which it should be. This is a central issue which must be addressed and real solutions – and the will to make the necessary changes - have been glaringly absent from the proposals so far.

“We recommend that the DCMS make it clear to the football authorities that further progress on these issues is expected within twelve months. If football cannot reform itself, the Government should introduce legislation as soon as practically possible. /ENDS


For a Select Committee report, this level of wording really is particularly strong, and the text of the report itself is even stronger

User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 29 Jan 2013 10:47

Far, far, stronger than contributors and informed observers expected - now expect the Premier league publicity machine to go into full swing protesting about unnecessary government interference and the need for football to govern itself.

User avatar
Uke
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 23893
Joined: 17 Apr 2004 16:24
Location: Слава Україні! Героям слава! @UkeRFC

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Uke » 29 Jan 2013 11:04

Rumpole Yep. May not seem strong enough to football fans used to emotive language etc, but for a select committee this is the equivalent of them manning the barricades and repeatedly screaming: "You're all a bunch of cunts"


The only way it could have been stronger (in business speak) was to begin the communication with "The committee was most surprised to learn that..."


Barry the bird boggler
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8153
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 08:34
Location: in my bird boggler

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Barry the bird boggler » 29 Jan 2013 16:20

Looking forward to this. I'm sick and tired of the PL and it's closed shop attitude and big clubs and their mantra that it's all about them. Also looking forward to the FA finally growing a pair and taking control of the game properly

Let's hope the government will have the willpower to implement swift and comprehensive legislation when the expected dragging of heels continues

User avatar
Who Moved The Goalposts?
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1011
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 08:23
Location: Tilehurst, 4 miles from heaven & hell

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Who Moved The Goalposts? » 29 Jan 2013 16:34

Barry the bird boggler Looking forward to this. I'm sick and tired of the PL and it's closed shop attitude and big clubs and their mantra that it's all about them. Also looking forward to the FA finally growing a pair and taking control of the game properly

Let's hope the government will have the willpower to implement swift and comprehensive legislation when the expected dragging of heels continues


100% behind your sentiment, but I am cynical about the power behind the force for change. I think bugger all of note is going to change whilst there is so much money to be made by the Premier League. Money talks, sadly and it will - through fair means or otherwise - be responsible for maintaining the status quo.

User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 29 Jan 2013 16:48

Before this report came out I was sceptical that anything would change, but after reading it I'm now a lot more positive. The tone says that they're serious - and I'm sure the PL will deploy all of their money and tame media to fight this tooth and nail.

But at the very least I think some of the recommendations will be implemented, if only as a damage limitation exercise by the PL, so the game will be better off after it than it is now - for instance getting rid of FCR and providing proper funding for supporters' organisations and supporter representation.

A line in the sand has been drawn and now everyone knows where they are - it's been spelt out clear as day that the FA has to be independent of the PL rather than its puppet.

The full report is here : http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmcumeds/509/509.pdf if anyone wants to read the full 143 pages.

wolsey
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1605
Joined: 21 Oct 2005 15:22
Location: Wishing I was young enough and crass enough to care

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by wolsey » 29 Jan 2013 16:53

Alexander Litvinenko Before this report came out I was sceptical that anything would change, but after reading it I'm now a lot more positive. The tone says that they're serious - and I'm sure the PL will deploy all of their money and tame media to fight this tooth and nail.

But at the very least I think some of the recommendations will be implemented, if only as a damage limitation exercise by the PL, so the game will be better off after it than it is now - for instance getting rid of FCR and providing proper funding for supporters' organisations and supporter representation.

A line in the sand has been drawn and now everyone knows where they are - it's been spelt out clear as day that the FA has to be independent of the PL rather than its puppet.

The full report is here : http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmcumeds/509/509.pdf if anyone wants to read the full 143 pages.


My ignorance of the details is stunning, but what exactly can the Government do?


User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 29 Jan 2013 17:14

wolsey
Alexander Litvinenko Before this report came out I was sceptical that anything would change, but after reading it I'm now a lot more positive. The tone says that they're serious - and I'm sure the PL will deploy all of their money and tame media to fight this tooth and nail.

But at the very least I think some of the recommendations will be implemented, if only as a damage limitation exercise by the PL, so the game will be better off after it than it is now - for instance getting rid of FCR and providing proper funding for supporters' organisations and supporter representation.

A line in the sand has been drawn and now everyone knows where they are - it's been spelt out clear as day that the FA has to be independent of the PL rather than its puppet.

The full report is here : http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmcumeds/509/509.pdf if anyone wants to read the full 143 pages.


My ignorance of the details is stunning, but what exactly can the Government do?


Key recommendations and summaries are below. A lot of it is about governance and ownership structures, but there's nothing in these that isn't good for readers of this thread :

1. While recognising that some progress has been made by agreement among the football authorities, we were disappointed that there was less progress than we had hoped in key areas. We go on to consider the details of the authorities’ proposals in the rest of this Report. We urge the authorities to be more radical and more urgent in addressing the problems faced by the game because of the weaknesses in its governance structure, at both FA and club level. We recommend that, unless there has been clear progress in all the areas we highlight below within 12 months, the Government introduce legislation as soon as practicable. (Paragraph 18)

2. We welcome the move to require all committees to report to the FA’s Main Board; however, there is still the potential for the Board to become marginalised. (Paragraph 27)

3. As the governing body of football in England, the Football Association should take the lead in decision-making for the game. Although the joint proposals include more consultation of representative groups by the National Game Board (NGB) and Professional Game Board (PGB), both these Boards will still, effectively, be dominated by the Premier League which provides funding directly or indirectly to the national game and the other leagues. Since the FA Main Board will be acting on the recommendations of the National Game Board and Professional Game Board, it is inevitable that, under these proposals, the Premier League will retain its dominance over the Football Association. Arguably, by devolving decision-making downwards, the joint proposals in some respects reinforce that dominance. While it is inevitable that the paymaster will have far greater influence than the other bodies in a representative organisation like the FA, we are disappointed that the proposals have not sought to alter this balance of power. (Paragraph 28)

4. The Core Group proposals of 27 June 2012 set out categories of decisions, some of which are for the FA Board and some of which are for delegation to the National Game Board and Professional Game Board. We are concerned that a number of key decision areas have been delegated from the FA to the NGB and PGB, with the regulator in effect ceding power to the regulated. It is also a matter of concern that the National and Professional Game Boards—largely composed of vested interests from the top of the football pyramid—will have the power to decide whether or not new areas requiring regulation would fall under the sole purview of the Football Association. (Paragraph 29)

5. We are not convinced that the governance of football is made easier or more effective by the requirements for consensus and the active consent of the regulated bodies to individual changes of the rules. (Paragraph 30)

6. In addition, we consider that clubs must incorporate changes, once agreed, into their rules to ensure that individual clubs follow the agreed procedures consistently and transparently. Paragraph 31)

7. Altogether, while the football authorities’ joint proposals make some progress in tackling the confusing overlap of roles within football governance, they fail to address the fundamental issue that the FA should exercise responsibility for all issues of major significance to the game through its Main Board and Council. (Paragraph 32)

8. The failure of the Football Association to reduce the size of its Board to ten is disappointing and largely due to the unwillingness of the leagues to reduce their representation. The representative balance of the Football Association Board is an even more pressing issue than its size, however. In order to allow the Football Association to become a strategic body—able to assert itself over the Leagues where appropriate—we recommended a Board structure that put Football Association executives and non-executives in the majority (6:4) over the vested interests of the Professional Game and National Game. Though the Football Authorities’ response accepted that the Board should be smaller, it failed to implement changes to composition which would put vested interests in the minority. Under the joint proposals, therefore, the FA Board would remain an association of interests. (Paragraph 36)

9. We are not convinced by the contention of the Football League that they require more than one representative in order to be able to operate effectively without delaying Board decisions. We recommend that the number of representatives from the leagues be limited to one each. (Paragraph 37)

10. We consider that the Professional Game Board is still very unrepresentative of the diversity of interests within the game. We recommend that the Board should contain wider representation, especially of supporters. (Paragraph 50)

11. The Football Authorities must produce more detailed proposals for the involvement and consultation of supporters and supporters’ groups through its committees and working groups. (Paragraph 51)

12. The Government undertook to investigate the possibility of amending the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 to protect minority supporter stakes in the case of a compulsory purchase order. The Government should state whether it intends to amend the Act and, if not, should set out its reasons. (Paragraph 54)

13. The delay in implementing the Government’s proposed expert working group—for which Supporters Direct has produced a draft agenda and which has been welcomed by the football authorities—runs counter to the Government’s commitment to remove barriers to supporter ownership. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport should set up the working group before the start of the new season. The working group should develop practical approaches to the difficulties faced by supporter ownership schemes including problems raising money, obtaining shares and defending against compulsory purchase orders. (Paragraph 59)

14. The resources dedicated to investigating fully the owners of clubs differ between the leagues, with the Premier League able to invest more in procedures and specialist assistance. At present the Premier League is confident that it knows the identity of the ultimate owners of its clubs, while the Football League is less certain who its clubs’ ultimate owners are, relying only on information provided by the clubs themselves which is checked against records in the public domain. Neither League is willing to provide the information it holds to fans. (Paragraph 66)

15. The Football Association Regulatory Authority should set a common standard across all English clubs for a percentage of ownership of a club which would trigger mandatory disclosure. We remain unconvinced that the ultimate owners of football clubs—which are not ordinary businesses and operate for the enjoyment and benefit of their local communities and fans—require their anonymity to be preserved either from or by the football authorities. The current situation, which denies fans the right to know who owns their club, is highly unsatisfactory. We recommend that the Premier League and Football League should have the duty to provide evidence to the Football Association of the identities of the ultimate owners of their clubs and that
the Football Association should make information about the ultimate owners of each club publicly available. (Paragraph 67)

16. We welcome the fact that the football authorities’ response accepted the need for a licensing model; however, the proposed system fails to provide the FA Board with the clear responsibility and powers to make it work effectively. The FA should produce a detailed proposal for a club licensing system including the composition of the FA Regulatory Authority (FARA). The FA Board should be responsible for decisions about the content and operation of the licensing system advised by, but not dependent on, agreement from the NGB and PGB. (Paragraph 74)

17. We are encouraged by recent significant progress by clubs towards adopting the Financial Fair Play framework introduced by UEFA. However, we remain concerned about the levels of debt within the game. We see little evidence that clubs will spend significant amounts of the funding available from the latest broadcasting rights settlement on increasing their sustainability rather than on players’ salaries and transfers. We await with interest clubs’ spending plans for the next season. We expect the Financial Fair Play rules to be enforced. If they are not enforced, then we consider that legislation will be required to impose some financial discipline on clubs. (Paragraph 84)

18. A significant source of debt for football clubs is the money paid to other clubs in player transfer fees. Teams are currently able to spend huge amounts on buying players because other clubs are willing to allow them to enter into long-term payment agreements. Clubs are arguably willing to do this because they do not see it as a financial risk because the Football Creditors Rule (FCR) gives them preferred creditor status. The short-term effect of removing the FCR may well be to cause some clubs to suffer financially from the insolvencies of clubs which owe them
money. However, in the longer term, clubs would be encouraged to require each other to demonstrate that they could afford the full cost of player transfers, which in turn has the potential to lead to more modest transfer fees being demanded. (Paragraph 93)

19. The Football Creditors Rule protects the interests of often highly-paid footballers and other clubs at the expense of HMRC and the many small local businesses which supply clubs with services and equipment and which make up the majority of unsecured creditors. Despite the admission by the football authorities that there is no moral defence for the rule, they have failed to develop an alternative. The football authorities must explore other ways of reducing the chances of insolvency such as the greater use of clauses in players’ contracts allowing clubs to pay them reduced salaries in the event of the team being relegated. We recommend that the Government legislate to ban the use of the Football Creditors Rule at the earliest opportunity. (Paragraph 94)

20. Parachute payments play a part in the financial organisation of the leagues. However, their impact on—especially lower league—clubs needs to be examined by the FA Board in order to determine the appropriate level at which payments should be made to ensure that they cause the least disruption possible and do not incentivise financial risk-taking. (Paragraph 98)

21. The joint response does not address the Committee’s recommendation to abolish the 50:50 divide of FA surplus revenues between the National Game Board and Professional Game Board. We remain of the view that the FA should be allowed to give a larger share of the surplus revenue to the national game if it wishes, as this has fewer sources of revenue. (Paragraph 103)

22. While we recognise that genuine efforts have been made and some progress has been achieved in relation to supporter representation and ownership, we are disappointed with the lack of direction and urgency from the football authorities as well as the Government. Not enough has been done to ensure a consistent and positive approach by clubs to active supporter involvement and meaningful consultation. Although the requirement for all clubs to appoint a Supporter Liaison Officer is clearly a step in the right direction, the football authorities should set out in more
detail how both formal and informal consultation of fans and supporters’ groups must be conducted and how this would be funded. The degree of supporter engagement should not be left to individual clubs, as it is now. The Football Association should require that, as part of a new licensing model, clubs have the responsibility to engage constructively with supporters, and the FA should draw up a set of best practices for clubs to ensure proper consultation and involvement of supporters. The new licence should also include a requirement for clubs to provide supporters’ trusts with the club’s financial reports. (Paragraph 111)

23. The football authorities’ response failed to identify a long-term funding strategy for Supporters Direct. The FA and the Premier League should agree and implement an effective long term funding solution for Supporters Direct by the end of March 2013, following the solidarity discussions due to take place in January. (Paragraph 117)

24. The existing powers of the Independent Football Ombudsman to address complaints against leagues and clubs are unsatisfactory, particularly in light of the Football League’s own inability to enforce judgments on its clubs. We recommend that the Independent Football Ombudsman should be given the power to enforce its adjudications after upholding complaints against the leagues and their clubs. (Paragraph 120)

User avatar
Uke
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 23893
Joined: 17 Apr 2004 16:24
Location: Слава Україні! Героям слава! @UkeRFC

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Uke » 29 Jan 2013 17:44

Alexander Litvinenko
wolsey
Alexander Litvinenko Before this report came out I was sceptical that anything would change, but after reading it I'm now a lot more positive. The tone says that they're serious - and I'm sure the PL will deploy all of their money and tame media to fight this tooth and nail.

But at the very least I think some of the recommendations will be implemented, if only as a damage limitation exercise by the PL, so the game will be better off after it than it is now - for instance getting rid of FCR and providing proper funding for supporters' organisations and supporter representation.

A line in the sand has been drawn and now everyone knows where they are - it's been spelt out clear as day that the FA has to be independent of the PL rather than its puppet.

The full report is here : http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmcumeds/509/509.pdf if anyone wants to read the full 143 pages.


My ignorance of the details is stunning, but what exactly can the Government do?


STUFF



Wasn't reading all that!

The government can now do stuff! :)

User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 30 Jan 2013 12:37

Debt amongst Football league clubs hits the £1bn mark - and Swindon on the edge : http://www.supporters-direct.org/?news-article=football-finance-football-league-debt-hits-1bn-and-swindon-town-on-the-edge

User avatar
PieEater
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 6723
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 15:42
Location: Comfortably numb

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by PieEater » 30 Jan 2013 15:11

Point 18 seems to be directly aimed at Pompey after gazumping us.

User avatar
TFF
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5321
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 09:17
Location: Running to the hills

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by TFF » 30 Jan 2013 15:27

Clubs simply shouldn't be allowed to buy players with money they don't have.

It would be so simple to set up a transfer bureau that banked and distributed all the cash ending the need for a FCR

Barry the bird boggler
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8153
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 08:34
Location: in my bird boggler

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Barry the bird boggler » 30 Jan 2013 15:44

TFF Clubs simply shouldn't be allowed to buy players with money they don't have.

It would be so simple to set up a transfer bureau that banked and distributed all the cash ending the need for a FCR


Quite agree with point 18 and the above. And I'll say it again that as soon as the FCR is done away with the better the game will be for all.

User avatar
Alexander Litvinenko
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2709
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 13:58
Location: Winner - HNA? Music Quiz 2013. The Great Sounds of Polonium 210.

Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Alexander Litvinenko » 30 Jan 2013 15:46

Barry the bird boggler
TFF Clubs simply shouldn't be allowed to buy players with money they don't have.

It would be so simple to set up a transfer bureau that banked and distributed all the cash ending the need for a FCR


Quite agree with point 18 and the above. And I'll say it again that as soon as the FCR is done away with the better the game will be for all.


Which is one of the things this is all about .....

5891 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests

It is currently 03 Aug 2025 00:31