Justice For The 96

[Schards#2]

Over 100 witness statements doctored?

I can see some people serving jailtime over this.

Whilst, clearly, the police were at fault, their actions have to be seen through the lens of what football was like in those days and I don't think people should be prosecuted for making terribly wrong decisions whilst under considerable pressure. But the cover up is indefencible and is, surely, perverting the course of justice.

[No Fixed Abode]

We know the police should never have opened the gates to relieve the crush outside the ground. The crush outside the ground never should have happened in the first place had it been organised properly. We all know that. And for the sake of repeating myself, (some)Liverpool fans in general should have had more respect for their fellow fans that day and they didn't. Yes there was the hysteria of an FA Cup semi-final, but that is no excuse. We all have a moral obligation to behave in a fit and proper manner in public.

When I'm getting on the tube and I can see it's packed and me getting on will make it more of a crush, I simply wait for the next one. Unfortunately you always get people who will then get on and crush me on the next train. Which obviously isn't my fault. This is a similar scenario of Hillsborough. It's not just Liverpool fans, it's people in general, so caught up in their own World only thinking of themselves. People need educating, not just Liverpool fans. It was a terrible tragedy and a terrible loss of life - but EVERYONE must learn from this, not just football fans and the police.

[windermere_royal]

We know the police should never have opened the gates to relieve the crush outside the ground. The crush outside the ground never should have happened in the first place had it been organised properly. We all know that. And for the sake of repeating myself, (some)Liverpool fans in general should have had more respect for their fellow fans that day and they didn't. Yes there was the hysteria of an FA Cup semi-final, but that is no excuse. We all have a moral obligation to behave in a fit and proper manner in public.

When I'm getting on the tube and I can see it's packed and me getting on will make it more of a crush, I simply wait for the next one. Unfortunately you always get people who will then get on and crush me on the next train. Which obviously isn't my fault. This is a similar scenario of Hillsborough. It's not just Liverpool fans, it's people in general, so caught up in their own World only thinking of themselves. People need educating, not just Liverpool fans. It was a terrible tragedy and a terrible loss of life - but EVERYONE must learn from this, not just football fans and the police.

got to agree with most of that, have you ever been waiting to board a plane and they say seat numbers XXX to seat number xxx please board now, with that every fvcker goes. FFS whats the rush, the planes not going anywhere.

[DelBoyRodders]

It was common as a football fan in those days to sit in the pub until as late as possible and then go to the ground.
It was also common practice to turn up in large numbers close to kick-off without tickets and try and rush the turnstile. Fans knew more often than not that Police would open the gates rather than have the mayhem outside. Liverpool fans were well-known for that and were still doing it in big European games the last time they were in Europe.
This disaster was an accident waiting to happen.
The Police made massive errors with Hillsborough and with hindsight could and should have saved lives, but some others have to accept they may not have helped things on the day.
A catalogue of things contributed to the crush (some almost freak events) and then the Police and stewards handled it appallingly, but some others must accept they should also have behaved differently with hindsight.
However, the 96 that died that day were totally innocent.

[PBR]

the only way for justice to be served is if every person in the united kingdom and possibly the world all shed a united tear for liverpool and those responsible are hung in public for the liverpool fans to throw assorted rotten veg at. never forget 96

[Silver Fox]

When I'm getting on the tube and I can see it's packed and me getting on will make it more of a crush, I simply wait for the next one. Unfortunately you always get people who will then get on and crush me on the next train. Which obviously isn't my fault. This is a similar scenario of Hillsborough. It's not just Liverpool fans, it's people in general, so caught up in their own World only thinking of themselves. People need educating, not just Liverpool fans. It was a terrible tragedy and a terrible loss of life - but EVERYONE must learn from this, not just football fans and the police.

got to agree with most of that, have you ever been waiting to board a plane and they say seat numbers XXX to seat number xxx please board now, with that every fvcker goes. FFS whats the rush, the planes not going anywhere.

Yep, boarding a busy tube or even a not overbooked plane are pretty much EXACTLY the same as what happened at Hillsborough

[No Fixed Abode]

I think you're missing the point m8.

[windermere_royal]

.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

he's saying that he wanted everyone there to act as an individual, and not as part of a crowd. What happened that day was completely consistent with all aspects of the way crowds move and behave. It was also consistent with the way crowds have behaved and do behave at virtually every other similar match before and since, and would in the same circumstances today.

That's why there need to be proper design and maintenance of facilities to ensure crowd safety, as well as proper signage and effective crowd management.

Take those factors away, add in fences ensuring no way out of the pens, and complicate matters with a tunnel leading to those pens - and you get exactly what happened at Hillsborough.

[Royal With Cheese]

he's saying that he wanted everyone there to act as an individual, and not as part of a crowd. What happened that day was completely consistent with all aspects of the way crowds move and behave. It was also consistent with the way crowds have behaved and do behave at virtually every other similar match before and since, and would in the same circumstances today.

That's why there need to be proper design and maintenance of facilities to ensure crowd safety, as well as proper signage and effective crowd management.

Take those factors away, add in fences ensuring no way out of the pens, and complicate matters with a tunnel leading to those pens - and you get exactly what happened at Hillsborough.

And had they been Man United, Leeds or Arsenal Fans exactly the same would have happened.

[who are ya?]

I think you're missing the point m8.

Are you saying that if all the Liverpool fans queued up with their ticket in hand and only entered the stadium once their ticket had been seen the crush would not have happened?

It wouldn't

[Once were Biscuitmen]

We know the police should never have opened the gates to relieve the crush outside the ground. The crush outside the ground never should have happened in the first place had it been organised properly. We all know that. And for the sake of repeating myself, (some)Liverpool fans in general should have had more respect for their fellow fans that day and they didn't. Yes there was the hysteria of an FA Cup semi-final, but that is no excuse. We all have a moral obligation to behave in a fit and proper manner in public.

When I'm getting on the tube and I can see it's packed and me getting on will make it more of a crush, I simply wait for the next one. Unfortunately you always get people who will then get on and crush me on the next train. Which obviously isn't my fault. This is a similar scenario of Hillsborough. It's not just Liverpool fans, it's people in general, so caught up in their own World only thinking of themselves. People need educating, not just Liverpool fans. It was a terrible tragedy and a terrible loss of life - but EVERYONE must learn from this, not just football fans and the police.

The stark difference is that you can see the tube train and how busy it is yourself and the fans had no idea what was happening down the length of a tunnel and then on to the front of the pen.

It is the responsibility of those managing the crowd and not the fans who were just going where they were instructed.

[No Fixed Abode]

I think you're missing the point m8.

Are you saying that if all the Liverpool fans queued up with their ticket in hand and only entered the stadium once their ticket had been seen the crush would not have happened?

I'm saying if people were more patient in general and acted more responsibly in public, without only thinking of themselves then things like Hillsborough wouldn't happen. People push and shove at gigs to get to the front, not because they're concerned about anyone else, because they want to get the best view possible for THEM. People were pushing and shoving outside of Hillsborough that day because THEY didn't want to miss kick off. So regardless of anyone else they tried to get into the ground as quickly as they could.

[cmonurz]

That is not reason enough to apportion any blame for what happened on those fans.

[Schards#2]

I think you're missing the point m8.

Are you saying that if all the Liverpool fans queued up with their ticket in hand and only entered the stadium once their ticket had been seen the crush would not have happened?

I'm saying if people were more patient in general and acted more responsibly in public, without only thinking of themselves then things like Hillsborough wouldn't happen. People push and shove at gigs to get to the front, not because they're concerned about anyone else, because they want to get the best view possible for THEM. People were pushing and shoving outside of Hillsborough that day because THEY didn't want to miss kick off. So regardless of anyone else they tried to get into the ground as quickly as they could.

That's how human beings behave, it's something that should have been foreseen and steps taken to prevent a sudden build up, as they were apparently the previous season under a different, and more experienced lead officer.

[DelBoyRodders]

I'm saying if people were more patient in general and acted more responsibly in public, without only thinking of themselves then things like Hillsborough wouldn't happen. People push and shove at gigs to get to the front, not because they're concerned about anyone else, because they want to get the best view possible for THEM. People were pushing and shoving outside of Hillsborough that day because THEY didn't want to miss kick off. So regardless of anyone else they tried to get into the ground as quickly as they could.

Correct!

[DelBoyRodders]

That is not reason enough to apportion any blame for what happened on those fans.

They were still partly responsible though.
I've been at Elland Road walking down the stairs from the upper tier and some bunch of oxf*rd at the top think it's funny to push. People then fall over and get trampled on.
Sadly it's what people do - can't blame police for that.

[cmonurz]

That is not reason enough to apportion any blame for what happened on those fans.

They were still partly responsible though.

No, they weren't. The report concluded that.

What do you think the police, ground security, stewards and crowd control procedures are for exactly?

[exileinleeds]

he's saying that he wanted everyone there to act as an individual, and not as part of a crowd. What happened that day was completely consistent with all aspects of the way crowds move and behave. It was also consistent with the way crowds have behaved and do behave at virtually every other similar match before and since, and would in the same circumstances today.

That's why there need to be proper design and maintenance of facilities to ensure crowd safety, as well as proper signage and effective crowd management.

Take those factors away, add in fences ensuring no way out of the pens, and complicate matters with a tunnel leading to those pens - and you get exactly what happened at Hillsborough.

And had they been Man United, Leeds or Arsenal Fans exactly the same would have happened.

Well quite. They had problems the year before. Yet they still gave the smaller stand to Liverpool fans, with fewer turnstiles. There were many delays in travelling to the ground that day which also would have encouraged people to rush.
There was no safety certificate for the ground- it should never have been used.
They could have delayed kick-off.
They could have had someone competent in charge.
They did test the dead for alcohol, without much evidence of drunkeness- less than usual- didn't have time for the pub.
Police actively attacked fans for trying to get over fences and relieve the crush, having refused to open the gates.
They took no action to save lives of the injured.
They actively prevented the ambulances from getting into the ground.
They then deliberately and (imho) criminally altered statements in an attempt to pervert the course of justice.

But hey, they deserved it. They supported Liverpool.

[Salford Royal]

I honestly don't think anyone was 'pushing'. The crowd outside the ground were in a crush themselves, trying to get through a tiny number of turnstiles. Witness statements in the report show that once the gate opened, people outside the ground were literally carried off their feet straight down the tunnel and into the already full central pens. Most of them had little control over where to go.

Its a matter of physics.

Anyway, not really sure why I'm posting. There are some truly embarassing comments on here.