Shane Long

[handbags_harris]

193.1.100.110

[CMRoyal]

I don't CARE! What matters, overall is goals for strikers, assists (and a few goals) for midfielders
and the stats are that Hunt and Kebe between them have provided 27 assists and 8 goals (35)
from a total of 69 goals... and we are second-top scoring side in this league.

So, IMO, overall, they have done their job

As much as anything else, I think those stats are a function of our tactics of playing through the wingers and the fact that S Hunt and Kebe have dominated possession of those positions. Even during this relatively barren period I'm sure they are amongst the highest assisters for us. That's also why Jimmy's inconsistency and S Hunt's poor form are such key drivers behind our drop from title deciders to playoff qualifiers.

Great cross from Jimmy on Tuesday, but when you can only do that once a match you are putting enormous pressure on the forwards to attain a 100% conversion rate. Luckily Kits scored against Derby, but the one-off decent crosses in our last few matches have not been converted, so I concur with those who say that Jimmy's inconsistency is a significant reason behind our poor run.

Jimmy was our worst player on Saturday and Tuesday, but looks more comfortable on the left so maybe he can play himself back into form at Stephen's expense?

[papereyes]

Against Sheffield United, Kitson hit the bar and Kenny made a good save. Result - 0 goals and we lose.

[Ian Royal]

Of course !

I have no real idea why Papes and Hoops keep mentioning it - I only have their comments to go on as to what was said. I'm just flattered that they keep the original saved away somewhere....

I mention it because it stuck in my mind as one of the most stupid arguments of that pre-season and you really couldn't admit that what you were suggesting was ludicrous.
.

why admit anything if it causes such angst amongst the football brains of the board !!!

I unreservedly apologise and take back my comments. It appears I have misread/been misinformed originally on what had been said was possible.

Long, Doyle, Lita & Kitson all scoring 15+ goals in the Premier League last season = ludicrous

3 of Doyle, Lita, Kitson & Long scoring 10+ goals in the Premier League far fetched but just about doable.

[Snowball]

Stephen Hunt has the second best assist record in the Championship, I think, and Kebe third

I only did the top seven and Barnsley (curious about JCR) and Watford (curious about Tom Smith)

19 Michael Kightly Wolves 08 goals 27
18 Stephen Hunt Reading 06 goals 24
09 Jimmy Kebe Reading 02 goals 11
08 Tom Smith Watford 16 goals 24
08 Jason Scotland Swansea 21 goals 29
08 Wade Elliott Burnley 03 goals 11
07 Joby Mcanuff Watford 02 goals 09
07 Matthew Jarvis Wolves 03 goals 10
07 David Cotterill Sheffield 03 goals 10
06 Chris Eagles Burnley 07 goals 13
05 Sylvan Ebanks-Blake Wolves 25 goals 30
05 Kevin Doyle Reading 18 goals 23
05 Jordi Gomez Swansea 12 goals 17
05 Graham Alexander Burnley 06 goals 11
05 Graham Alexander Burnley 06 goals 11
05 Greg Halford Sheffield 04 goals 09
05 Peter Whittingham Cardiff 03 goals 08
05 Paul Parry Cardiff 02 goals 07
05 Wayne Routledge Cardiff 02 goals 07
04 Chris Iwelumo Wolves 14 goals 18
04 Martin Paterson Burnley 12 goals 16
04 Darius Henderson Sheffield 06 goals 10
04 Daren Prately Swansea 04 goals 08
04 Eddie Johnson Cardiff 02 goals 06
04 Angel Rangel Swansea 01 goals 05
04 Mark Gower Swansea 00 goals 05
03 J Campell-Rice Barnsley 08 goals 11
03 Noel Hunt Reading 11 goals 14
02 Shane Long Reading 07 goals 09

[Snowball]

If you add together goals and assists

Shane isn't doing bad for a super-sub

30 Sylvan Ebanks-Blake Wolves
29 Jason Scotland Swansea
27 Michael Kightly Wolves
24 Stephen Hunt Reading
24 Tom Smith Watford
23 Kevin Doyle Reading
18 Chris Iwelumo Wolves
17 Jordi Gomez Swansea
16 Martin Paterson Burnley
14 Noel Hunt Reading
13 Chris Eagles Burnley
11 Jimmy Kebe Reading
11 Wade Elliott Burnley
11 Graham Alexander Burnley
11 J Campell-Rice Barnsley
10 Matthew Jarvis Wolves
10 David Cotterill Sheffield
10 Darius Henderson Sheffield
09 Joby Mcanuff Watford
09 Greg Halford Sheffield
09 Shane Long Reading
08 Peter Whittingham Cardiff
08 Daren Prately Swansea
07 Paul Parry Cardiff
07 Wayne Routledge Cardiff
06 Eddie Johnson Cardiff
05 Angel Rangel Swansea
05 Mark Gower Swansea

[Ian Royal]

Kebe:

Starts - actual assists - actual goals - great chances resulting in nothing as a direct result of Kebe
36 ----------9------------------2----------------------------------------------~20*

Assists and goals are of course the important end target for midfielders/strikers. However, they are not the only important thing.

What the player screws up is just as important as what they succeed in. Their overall contribution to play in terms of possession, tackling, passing, positioning and so on are, combined, more important than just getting 9, 10 or 15 assists or goals.

Kitson, Doyle and NHunt are considered better options to start than Long & Lita, because they offer goal scoring ability combined with excellent link up play and work rate.

Long is developing into a potential starter, because as well as providing the team with pace he is now starting to score, but previously his passing, control and scoring have not been good enough to threaten the others.

Lita is typically a strong finisher when you play to his strengths, but offers little else. Although if the ball is played to him in the right way, he can be quite good at holding the ball up (assuming he's decided not to fall over at every opportunity)

Lita scored plenty when we were getting promoted, but anyone sensible would have preferred DOyle or Kitson to him and not just because they scored more goals but because they offered more to the team.


* being pessimistic.

[Snowball]

The Actim Index rates


02 Kevin Doyle second-best striker and second-best player in this league
03 Stephen Hunt best midfielder and 3rd best player overall in the league
19 Liam Rosenior 4th best defender in this league 19th best player in the league
34 Chris Armstrong is 34th overall
71 Noel Hunt
74 Marcus Hahnemann
79 Jimmy Kebe

But this list has said Doyle and Hunt don't want to play, are prima-donnas, SHunt is "utterly useless"
Jimmy Kebe is "the worst footballer to wear a Reading shirt", NHunt is too lightweight etc etc etc

[Ian Royal]

Actim index = nice indicator and interesting to look at, but not totally reflective of reality.

SHunt is 3rd on the basis of some early good performances and an excellent set piece delivery for half the season. Since Xmas he has been average at best. Suggesting he has been better than all but Doyle and (presumably) Ebanks-Blake is not reflective of how he has actually played.

[Hoop Blah]

3 of Doyle, Lita, Kitson & Long scoring 10+ goals in the Premier League far fetched but just about doable.

Just to reiterate Ian, between Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal only something like 3 or 4 times in the last 5 or so seasons have any of those teams managed to get three players into double figures for league goals in a season. I remember it being quite a surprisingly low number for the top clubs who all usually out score the rest of the division.

I think the original discussion came about after talk of getting that ellusive '20 goals a season man' when infact it's difficult enough to get a forward to score 10 goals a season in a mid table side let alone 20.

[Snowball]

Kebe:

Starts - actual assists - actual goals - great chances resulting in nothing as a direct result of Kebe
36 ----------9------------------2----------------------------------------------~20*

Assists and goals are of course the important end target for midfielders/strikers. However, they are not the only important thing. What the player screws up is just as important as what they succeed in. Their overall contribution to play in terms of possession, tackling, passing, positioning and so on are, combined, more important than just getting 9, 10 or 15 assists or goals. Kitson, Doyle and NHunt are considered better options to start than Long & Lita, because they offer goal scoring ability combined with excellent link up play and work rate. Long is developing into a potential starter, because as well as providing the team with pace he is now starting to score, but previously his passing, control and scoring have not been good enough to threaten the others. Lita is typically a strong finisher when you play to his strengths, but offers little else. Although if the ball is played to him in the right way, he can be quite good at holding the ball up (assuming he's decided not to fall over at every opportunity) Lita scored plenty when we were getting promoted, but anyone sensible would have preferred DOyle or Kitson to him and not just because they scored more goals but because they offered more to the team.


* being pessimistic.

Being pessimistic = making the numbers up as you go along.

I don't dispute that Jimmy Kebe has screwed up crosses, or lost the ball, just as SHunt has run into cul-de-sacs or blasted a ball wide, just as Lita has missed countless shots, or (pick a defender) has given away free-kicks, penalities etc

But you omit to mention that ROUTINELY teams now double-up on our wingers which must mean there's more space for other attacking players (and the wingers will look weaker)

Despite your brilliant insights, you deep knowledge of football, your years of coaching experience, and the dozens of medals on your mantlepiece,
that no-hoper, moronic idiot Mr Steve Coppell keeps picking SHunt and Kebe, even when there could have been, Little, Robson-Kanu, Tabb, Henry,
Doyle or NHunt (RW)... maybe, MAYBE, because, OVERALL he sees those players as the best options until Ronaldo, Wright-Phillips, etc sign


The facts remain that SHunt is second highest assister and Kebe third

[Ian Royal]

If you really want me to I can sit down tonight and give you 20 specific examples.

Doubling up has no impact on the chances I'm talking about for Kebe. Doubled up on means you wouldn't get the chance to create something, not that you get the chance to and then oxf*rd it up.

Remind me, exactly what alternative has there been to Kebe and SHunt for most of the season?

Oh that's right Convey - permanantly suffering from a niggling injury and having shown no decent form for 2 years
Henry - best other option, but young inexperienced and often on loan
Little - old, slow and only here since January

I'm not arguing with your numbers. I'm arguing with your extremely simplistic and blinkered interpretation of them.

[Snowball]

Actim index = nice indicator and interesting to look at, but not totally reflective of reality.

YOU say, based on what knowledge?

It's the official statistical measure, but YOU know better

SHunt is 3rd on the basis of some early good performances and an excellent set piece delivery for half the season. Since Xmas he has been average at best.
Suggesting he has been better than all but Doyle and (presumably) Ebanks-Blake is not reflective of how he has actually played.

YOU say. A season is a season is a season, and it's the whole season that matters.

Right now the team is worthy of fourth and will finish 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th
and rationally we should expect this to be reflected in the team's constituents.

Unless Ian Royal says different of course.

[Snowball]

If you really want me to I can sit down tonight and give you 20 specific examples.

Doubling up has no impact on the chances I'm talking about for Kebe. Doubled up on means you wouldn't get the chance to create something, not that you get the chance to and then oxf*rd it up.
Remind me, exactly what alternative has there been to Kebe and SHunt for most of the season?
Oh that's right Convey - permanantly suffering from a niggling injury and having shown no decent form for 2 years
Henry - best other option, but young inexperienced and often on loan
Little - old, slow and only here since January
I'm not arguing with your numbers. I'm arguing with your extremely simplistic and blinkered interpretation of them.

Convey
Noel Hunt (has played a lot at RW)
Henry
Doyle
Robson-Kanu
Tabb
Harding
Matejovsky
Rosenior
Little

Another Transfer Signing (if Coppel thought we were too weak)

[CMRoyal]

The Actim Index rates


02 Kevin Doyle second-best striker and second-best player in this league
03 Stephen Hunt best midfielder and 3rd best player overall in the league
19 Liam Rosenior 4th best defender in this league 19th best player in the league
34 Chris Armstrong is 34th overall
71 Noel Hunt
74 Marcus Hahnemann
79 Jimmy Kebe

But this list has said Doyle and Hunt don't want to play, are prima-donnas, SHunt is "utterly useless"
Jimmy Kebe is "the worst footballer to wear a Reading shirt", NHunt is too lightweight etc etc etc

Well, it's easy to focus on the more extreme view-points and denigrate them, but I think the evidence of most people's eyes points to the fact that S Hunt started well this season - particularly with his dead ball delivery - but has gone off the boil since. Some put that down to his not caring, others to his caring too much (hence trying too hard). Others down to the fact that his early good start has forced a change of tactics in the opposition, who work extra hard to nullify his threat. Others have been of the opinion that he was a limited talent anyway and has been found out. Most people hold a mix of those views.

Same with Jimmy - clearly he has pace to burn. Clearly at times his dribbling ability is phenomenal. But clearly also he sees a heck a lot of the ball, partly helped by the concentration of opposition teams on the aforementioned job of neutralising S Hunt, and does not always utilise it well; he often makes bad decisions and his final ball lets him down more often than not. His assist stats are good, but could and should be a lot better in a team that plays the way we do.

[Hoop Blah]

Actim index = nice indicator and interesting to look at, but not totally reflective of reality.

YOU say, based on what knowledge?

It's the official statistical measure, but YOU know better

What's it actually used for though Snowball?

It's OFFICIAL because they use it to drive traffic to their website, try to make football appeal to a different audience (the Yanks love their sports stats and it's becoming more and more prevelant in other sports), and try to make money from the advertising.

Actim use it to sell their services and promote their brand and to sell papers. It's produced by a news group who sell their news feeds all over the world, it's not there as some tactical piece of information to turn everyone into the next Brian Clough or Fergie!

A few punters will use them to help them find some value in a betting market or to help pick out some winners, but I bet you nobody in football is using the Actim stats to figure out which right winger to buy this summer!

[Stranded]

Indeed. McDonalds are the offical partner of the FA Youth coaching programme - doesn't make Ronald McDonald a good football coach.

Actim is interesting but is no true guide of a players overall performance. Wasn't there a stage last season where Hahnemann was the top rated keeper in the Premier League?

[brendywendy]

but the one-off decent crosses in our last few matches have not been converted, so I concur with those who say that Jimmy's inconsistency is a significant reason behind our poor run.

Jimmy was our worst player on Saturday and Tuesday, but looks more comfortable on the left so maybe he can play himself back into form at Stephen's expense?

jimmy kebe put in at least 3 very good crosses on saturday that reached their target, but the striker failed to get his shot/header on target
there was another pull back that if kitson had been in the box instead of midfield he would have reached and also scored.

i didnt go on tuesday, but he sounded to be his usual mix of appalling and excellent


totally agree he looks much better on the left hand side

[RobRoyal]

Actim index = nice indicator and interesting to look at, but not totally reflective of reality.

YOU say, based on what knowledge?

It's the official statistical measure, but YOU know better

Ok then Snowball, would you like to give us an explanation of how those tables are reached and a defence of how those criteria accurately reflect what makes for an effective footballer?

You know, analyse stats rather than just constantly spout them as self-evidently meaningful?

[CMRoyal]

but the one-off decent crosses in our last few matches have not been converted, so I concur with those who say that Jimmy's inconsistency is a significant reason behind our poor run.

Jimmy was our worst player on Saturday and Tuesday, but looks more comfortable on the left so maybe he can play himself back into form at Stephen's expense?

jimmy kebe put in at least 3 very good crosses on saturday that reached their target, but the striker failed to get his shot/header on target
there was another pull back that if kitson had been in the box instead of midfield he would have reached and also scored.

i didnt go on tuesday, but he sounded to be his usual mix of appalling and excellent


totally agree he looks much better on the left hand side

You're right, the number of decent balls has increased recently. I caught the exaggeration cold there for a moment. I also think that it takes some time for him to get his effectiveness up to optimum level - partly due to his own confidence and ability, and partly due to others learning to read his 'game-play' thoughts (you can surely only do so much on a training pitch). When he first came back from his suspension he looked to have gone back a few steps in his progress, which in turn affected his confidence. Hopefully he's getting that back now.