QPR points deduction?

1341 posts
User avatar
philM
Member
Posts: 891
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 21:08
Location: Ruscombe

Re: QPR points deduction?

by philM » 03 May 2011 19:42

moo The betting odds keeping changing in Norwich's favour.

Currently on Betfair

QPR 1.94
Norwich 1.94


I put £10 on Norwich (and the same on Swansea, Cardiff and Reading) on 13th April and got 29/1

Can't believe I actually got one step ahead of the bookies, so I'm still not hopeful.

Sarah Star
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3186
Joined: 18 Feb 2008 12:29

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Sarah Star » 03 May 2011 22:11

That Friday Feeling What are the seven charges again?

I was wondering that myself. No one seems to have mentioned them all except here...
The Guardian Charges QPR face

1) Entering contracts with third-party organisations enabling them "materially to influence" the club's policies or its team's performance

2) Entering contracts assigning rights to or making payments to a third party in connection with a player transfer

3) Providing the FA with allegedly false information in later contract extension documents

4) Bringing the game into disrepute

5) Using the services of an unauthorised agent

Charges Gianni Paladini faces

1) Bringing the game into disrepute

2) Concealing or misrepresenting the reality and/or substance of matters relating to a transaction or contract negotiation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011 ... el-taarabt

User avatar
Ian Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 35156
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 13:43
Location: Playing spot the pc*nt on HNA?

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Ian Royal » 03 May 2011 22:33

Charges QPR face

3) Providing the FA with allegedly false information in later contract extension documents

4) Bringing the game into disrepute

5) Using the services of an unauthorised agent

These are the three that would lead to points deductions IMO.

If all of them are "proven" then QPR are well and truely oxf*rd and would be massively lucky to get away with 15 points taken off and a fine.

I don't expect all of them to be proven though.

Barry the bird boggler
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8153
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 08:34
Location: in my bird boggler

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Barry the bird boggler » 04 May 2011 07:30

From the BBC OS....

Former Football Association chief Mark Palios believes QPR will be deducted points following the hearing into their 2009 signing of Alejandro Faurlin.

The hearing, which started on Tuesday, centres around seven charges relating to the initial deal arising from the Argentine midfielder's ownership.

Palios told BBC Radio 4 that if the club are found guilty they would be docked points based on set precedents.

QPR, who won promotion to the Premier League on Saturday, deny the charges.

On Saturday, Rangers boss Neil Warnock reacted angrily to media claims that the club could be docked as many as 15 points, which would scupper their elevation to the top flight. The FA has since moved to deny that any decision had been made.

The charges facing QPR concern the alleged existence of an agreement between them and a third party in respect of Faurlin's economic rights, and the alleged failure by the club to notify the FA of that agreement before the player was registered to play for them in England.

The club has also been charged with allegedly using or seeking to pay an unauthorised agent as part of the Faurlin deal, while both the club and chairman Gianni Paladini have further been charged with allegedly submitting false information in documents provided to the FA relating to a contract extension signed by Faurlin in October.

"There is a lot of precedent around playing an ineligible player and that ranges from the clerical errors around the transfer window, when they get small points deductions, to more serious situations," said Palios.

"I think following the [Carlos] Tevez affair it is necessary for a statement to be made. This is more serious than a clerical error, so deserves a points deduction almost certainly.

"The second charge with regard to illegal payment to agents, I think there is a precedent when Luton got 10 points deducted for doing that.

"Interestingly, the FA said they tried and didn't say they actually did make the payments to unregistered agents."

What will happen over three days of evidence-giving, cross-examining and justice-weighing is almost anybody's guess and anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't really understand what is going on

The FA has been investigating the case since September, when QPR first asked for permission to buy out the third party that owned Faurlin's economic rights.

The club was prompted to do this by the Football League's introduction of rules prohibiting the third-party ownership of players.

The League told QPR they would have to notify the FA of their plans and it then became apparent the club may have been in breach of FA regulations for more than a year.

Saturday's 2-0 win at Watford secured QPR's promotion to the Premier League as champions but any definite celebrations have had to be put on hold as the spectre of docked points hangs over the west London club.

If a points deduction is indeed deemed necessary, then Warnock's side could drop into the play-off places. The club would be expected to appeal if the FA rules against them.

BBC Sport understands the Football League has held initial talks with clubs likely to be in the play-offs, regarding potentially switching the dates of the semi-finals if QPR are docked points.

When interviewed on Monday's Late Kick Off programme on BBC One, QPR midfielder Shaun Derry agreed with his manager's assessment that the atmosphere around the club was "like a morgue" following Friday's press reports.

"It was upsetting to read," said Derry. "Especially when it could mean taking away promotion and taking away the fact that winning that game meant we were champions.

"We were going into a derby against Watford and to read that on the Friday, it was hard for the boys."

Derry also underlined the impact a significant points deduction would have on the club.

"It would be disastrous," he said. "We have been the best team this year and we are up there on merit. What a hammer blow it would be to everybody connected with QPR - the players, the staff, the fans especially.

"But you can't even think about it. What we have said all along is to take away what happens this week and celebrate it because if nothing does happen, you don't want to miss out on the celebration."

The reason the case has been brought against QPR is because of rules that were brought in following the Carlos Tevez saga. That case dragged on for two years after Tevez helped West Ham stave off relegation from the Premier League in 2007, despite being owned by a third party.

Sheffield United, ironically then managed by Warnock, went down instead and lodged a legal challenge that ended with the Hammers owing the Premier League £5.5m for breaking the rules and the Blades £20m in compensation.

West Ham, however, avoided any points deduction that would have taken them down in Sheffield United's place.

QPR have led the Championship table since early in the season and have only lost five times in the league.

User avatar
Royal Rother
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 22272
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 23:22
Location: The handsome bald fella with the blue eyes

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Royal Rother » 04 May 2011 07:56

Barry the bird boggler Logically all points earned with him playing before January should be deducted, this is the precedence set in other leagues.

In the real world, they'll be given a suspended fine and told naughty, naughty.


Man Friday
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2856
Joined: 20 Nov 2005 13:45

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Man Friday » 04 May 2011 08:42

The F.A. are in a pickle over this because in the circumstances of the season virtually having ended they won't want to take any action but they're be forced to do something significant.

User avatar
PieEater
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 6708
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 15:42
Location: Comfortably numb

Re: QPR points deduction?

by PieEater » 04 May 2011 09:16

But I guess they knew that when they set the date of the hearing. :roll:

User avatar
leicsRoyal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2013
Joined: 08 May 2009 17:58

Re: QPR points deduction?

by leicsRoyal » 04 May 2011 09:20

From a cynical point of view it could be a clever decision to set this date by the FA. They know pretty much exactly how many points to take off so as not to throw the play offs, TV contracts, sponsorship contracts, Wembley planning, clubs end of season tours etc into complete chaos.

bubibe
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 19:37

Re: QPR points deduction?

by bubibe » 04 May 2011 09:27

A points deduction dropping QPR into the playoffs would hardly be fair to the three other teams who will then have to tackle a team acknowledged as the best in the division. Surely the fair approach would be a ten point deduction from their forthcoming premiership campaign.

Excellent outcome for Reading should we get promoted!


User avatar
leicsRoyal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2013
Joined: 08 May 2009 17:58

Re: QPR points deduction?

by leicsRoyal » 04 May 2011 09:30

bubibe A points deduction dropping QPR into the playoffs would hardly be fair to the three other teams who will then have to tackle a team acknowledged as the best in the division. Surely the fair approach would be a ten point deduction from their forthcoming premiership campaign.

Excellent outcome for Reading should we get promoted!



If found guilty, the punishment should be to the season that has been affected IMO.

User avatar
Svlad Cjelli
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4605
Joined: 14 May 2008 09:25
Location: It's the Premier LEAGUE, you cretins. The Premiership hasn't existed for years.

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Svlad Cjelli » 04 May 2011 09:33

leicsRoyal
bubibe A points deduction dropping QPR into the playoffs would hardly be fair to the three other teams who will then have to tackle a team acknowledged as the best in the division. Surely the fair approach would be a ten point deduction from their forthcoming premiership campaign.

Excellent outcome for Reading should we get promoted!



If found guilty, the punishment should be to the season that has been affected IMO.


That means it needs to have included last season, then. Fourlin scored a goal last season - when illegally owned - which arguably relegated Sheffield Wednesday.

So the principle of punishments in the same season has long since been lost.

User avatar
Royal Rother
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 22272
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 23:22
Location: The handsome bald fella with the blue eyes

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Royal Rother » 04 May 2011 09:37

bubibe, that's been said many times on this discussion but my feeling is that QPR will be the weakest team in the play-offs as they'll be at a low psychological point having won the league in their minds fairly, then having to go out and win promotion all over again.

Warnock's powers of mitivation are obviousy superb but it would be a hell of a blow to the players and I don't think they'd be able to pick themselves up to take on the play offs with full undimmed focus.

User avatar
leicsRoyal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2013
Joined: 08 May 2009 17:58

Re: QPR points deduction?

by leicsRoyal » 04 May 2011 09:39

Svlad Cjelli
leicsRoyal
bubibe A points deduction dropping QPR into the playoffs would hardly be fair to the three other teams who will then have to tackle a team acknowledged as the best in the division. Surely the fair approach would be a ten point deduction from their forthcoming premiership campaign.

Excellent outcome for Reading should we get promoted!



If found guilty, the punishment should be to the season that has been affected IMO.


That means it needs to have included last season, then. Fourlin scored a goal last season - when illegally owned - which arguably relegated Sheffield Wednesday.

So the principle of punishments in the same season has long since been lost.


The FA knew about this though and chose not to take any further action other than to warn and advise what QPR needed to do to put it right. QPR then submitted the documents to the FA to show that they had done what was required, although it was then found that these documents had been falsified.
If this had not have been the case with these documents, I would suggest that we would have heard no more about it. QPR have been hit with all 7 charges because of the falsified docs, which would suggest to me that the FA are pretty Oxf&rd off with the Fake hoops.


User avatar
TFF
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5321
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 09:17
Location: Running to the hills

Re: QPR points deduction?

by TFF » 04 May 2011 09:43

bubibe A points deduction dropping QPR into the playoffs would hardly be fair to the three other teams who will then have to tackle a team acknowledged as the best in the division. Surely the fair approach would be a ten point deduction from their forthcoming premiership campaign.

Excellent outcome for Reading should we get promoted!


How is that "fair" on all the other teams in the league that they are accused of cheating in?

"Fairness" won't come into it. It wouldn't be "fair" on all the league 1 teams to have an economic giant dropped into their league next season. It wouldn't be "fair" on the QPR fans to have the title and/or promotion taken away from them.

The problem with this case is that no matter what the FA decide to do, should the case be proven of course, is that there is no prescribed and published penalty for the alleged offences. If they come up with a fine it won't be big enough, or it should have been a points deduction. If they deduct 15 points it should have been 20, or all of them earned before January.

No matter what the FA decide to do it will be open to argument/appeal after the event.

User avatar
leicsRoyal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2013
Joined: 08 May 2009 17:58

Re: QPR points deduction?

by leicsRoyal » 04 May 2011 09:51

Exactly that TFF,

Hence I believe it will be a case of no promotion this year.

This way the FA won't need to justify any points deduction or fine ( although it will equate to around £50 mill)

It will also set a new precedent.

User avatar
Dave the rave
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1003
Joined: 26 Dec 2004 18:15
Location: Likes this

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Dave the rave » 04 May 2011 10:03

Mark Palios questions a 52 page thread of speculation when he

What will happen over three days of evidence-giving, cross-examining and justice-weighing is almost anybody's guess and anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't really understand what is going on



Quite.

User avatar
TBM
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 16902
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:27
Location: Prediction League Champion 2009/2010, 2010/2011 & 2013/2014

Re: QPR points deduction?

by TBM » 04 May 2011 10:08

6pts and a fine.........thats my guess

User avatar
Svlad Cjelli
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4605
Joined: 14 May 2008 09:25
Location: It's the Premier LEAGUE, you cretins. The Premiership hasn't existed for years.

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Svlad Cjelli » 04 May 2011 10:35

Dave the rave
Mark Palios questions a 52 page thread of speculation when he

What will happen over three days of evidence-giving, cross-examining and justice-weighing is almost anybody's guess and anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't really understand what is going on



Quite.


As I said on 7th April :

Svlad Cjelli It's certainly not "clearly a situation where the rules have been broken" - that's the whole point in this and that's what makes it so open interpretation and subject to legal argument - and why they've scheduled 3 days for the hearing.

The rules on third-party ownership are torturous, extremely complicated and very much open to interpretation. As I understand it, QPR's case is that they believe that the player wasn't owned by a 3rd party in that they had done everything they needed to ensure they had control of the player, even though a third-party had financial interest in that player's contract. The FA believe the opposite, in that the third-party had a controlling interest in the player rather than QPR. But it's not a simple contract which is owned by one person or another - it's a contract which is wholly or partly owner by external, overseas, investors.

So this will be lots of legal argument about financial interests and so on - rendered horrible complicated and open to interpretation and argument by lawyers (and QPR will have paid for the best lawyers to represent them, of course!) so it's anything but a cut and dried

User avatar
Royal Lady
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 13769
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 10:17
Location: Don't mess with "my sort". Cheers then.

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Royal Lady » 04 May 2011 10:51

Has anyone answered my query as to who QPR appeal to, if they appeal? Surely it's the same panel who make the judgement in the first place - so why would they change their minds? :|

User avatar
Silver Fox
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 26857
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 10:02
Location: From the Andes to the indies in my undies

Re: QPR points deduction?

by Silver Fox » 04 May 2011 10:52

I can't think of anyone they appeal to RL, except Tredds and that newbie dave bloke

1341 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: From Despair To Where?, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 407 guests

It is currently 19 Jul 2025 21:35