Back from the game (ish)

[Northern Git]

how doe we, or he challenge reality?
by ignoring it?
i just dont think 7 million bids are turn downable for a club with less than optimal gates such as ours.
or for the players themselves.
the one thing we cant be criticised is holding out for the biggest possible bids for our players when they are eventually sold.
im not sure long was ever encoruaged. possibly sig, but that may also be disengenuous imo.
he said he didnt really want to go, but that could easily m,ean he was reluctant to, but had to go cos it was a great opportunity.

I think you will find he was sent on his way despite telling the club he did not want to go. Source? His family members.

[Sarah Star]

Is Howard a lost cause?

I'm not sure he's ever coming back. It was the way when he went on loan to Millwall, McDermott said that he went "with our best wishes" sounded a bit like a farewell.

[RoyalBlue]

Sig didn't want to go as has been said many times, long however...no one can argue with that sale. Mills also was a far better centre back than anything left at the club now and we sold him too. Thats three players ( the spine of the team) from the last few seasons we've removed and not replaced with quality. You can't keep selling quality players and expect not to suffer on the pitch. We've received astronomical amounts in transfer fee's compared to everyone else in the football league in the last 3/4 seasons yet we still somehow cannot compete with them financially. No other club can boast anywhere close to over 40 million received in player sales yet we've invested how much of that in trying to maintain our team? I don't care whose fault it was/is anymore, as has been mentioned we vastly overspent on wages in the prem and we're still suffering so we know thats where the money has gone...we are still suffering from the clubs poor management of the premiership money. Our only hope is that we can clear all that and start fresh from this point on...the only problem with that is convincing any quality that may come through our academy ( lets face it that's the only place they are going to come with our spending power) that they should stay on at Reading and hope we get to the prem to appease them. Chances of that happening in today's game? Not very high as soon as someone from the prem comes calling. Really not a lot to look forward to in honesty...as soon as our young players start to gel and really come on..they'll be off and we'll be rebuilding continuously.

it's been said many times but never ever once proved that Sig didn't want to go

Find me one shred of evidence that says he was forced out

Are you deaf then (sorry no offence meant Spacey)? Have you not heard the interview that BBCRB had with the Sig when he returned to watch one of our games or are you just going to say he is a liar?

I and others have referred to that interview several times. It exists, it was broadcast. Suggest you ask Dellor or someone where you can find a copy of it. There you will find your smoking gun.

And even if you accept all the assurances that the players wanted to leave, we would have liked to keep them but had no option etc. how do you excuse the pitiful amount that the manager has been given to reinvest in buildingcthe squad back up after its strongest members had been sold? It is that latter factor more than anything which leaves McDermott with a thankless and probably impossible job and results in the performances and position that we are now experiencing more frequently.

Is Howard a lost cause?

I'm not sure he's ever coming back. It was the way when he went on loan to Millwall, McDermott said that he went "with our best wishes" sounded a bit like a farewell.

If so, a very big mistake on the part of the bald one. His best wishes have worked wonders for Howard and Millwall.

[M-U-R-T-Y]

I warned you, you were all being far too positive on the prediction thread.

[Wimb]

He may not have 100% wanted to leave the club but the majority of players that leave a club leave with a slight tinge of sadness and regret especially if they've grown up there. According to the vast majority of press and interviews givem, Sigurdsson felt it was an opportunity too good to turn down and a chance to prove himself at a team who are in the top flight of a major footballing country and a club fighting for Europe and who can blame him?

If in his decision making process he gave some consideration to the clubs financial situation then that is still his choice nothing to do with the club. He had just been given a perfectly good contract that COULD have kept him at the club for years to come. The club had a budget to keep him so there was no issue what so ever with him staying.

So what if that decision had annoyed Hammond or Madejski? they had no say in the matter and I bet the PFA would damn well have had something to say if there was any substance behind a claim that a player was forced out against his will due to a clubs financial situation.

More to the point, what exactly did the Sig say in this Dellor interview? if you are so adament about your point then find me a transcript or a link to it where he says specifically 'I was forced out of the club to fill a financial hole' I hazard a guess to find that you won't find it because it doesn't exist. What he may have said is what i alluded to above in that it was a good bit of business for the club and that may have provided a little extra incentive for him to go, but the prime reason for him moving would not have been the clubs finances.

You can continue on your one man Madejski out crusade as long as you like and everyone is free to an opion. But we all know that you're going to turn everything a player says into a negative and use any shred of conjecture no matter how small to help your case which does you no credit what so ever. You continually miss/ignore the well rationed and explained points, not just here but in the media at large and on other blogs, that football finance in general is a total utter mess unless you have a benefactor and that this club for all intents and purposes has nobody to underwrite debt and wants to run itself as a business in order to ensure its survival.

You can bleat on all you like about how we should be keeping every player year on year but that would lead to us running debts similar to the OCUMENTED £6m a year we were losing pre-PL. So tell us, if we fail to make promotion for 4/5 seasons in a row, who exactly foots the £30m debt? ESPECIALLY at a time where banks in general are reluctant to lend not only to football clubs but to any business.

Despite their business model those in charge continue to invest in the football club with whatever means at its disposal. We have an Academy and a Stadium that's still he envy of most outside the top flight, a fanbase that's doubled in the space of 10 years and are enjoying the best period in the clubs 132 year history. We've recruited several international players this season while bringing through talented younger players who are internationals in their own right.

We may not splash on extravogant transfer fees but so what, we don't want to take the gambles needed to finance those moves and that's a decision I'm happy enough with. We've seen the big fees spent before and even the greatest manager this club has had managed to spectacularly miss with theb £1m Seol, £2.5m Fae, £1m Cisse and £2.5 Halford.

If you want to bankrupt the club in chase of the dream feel free but I'd rather buck the trend and prove that you can build a good club with the right players and the right manager. The work done by Brian is fantastic (which I'm sure you'll agree) and as much as I'd like Charlie Austin, Ryan Bertrand and Bradley Wright-Phillips im sure so would Millwall, Leeds and all the other clubs that are in the same boat.

What winds me up about the most is that you're clearly smart and can see the argument but you put the blinkers on and throw the toys out of the pram just because other teams play by a different set of rules.

[melonhead]

how doe we, or he challenge reality?
by ignoring it?
i just dont think 7 million bids are turn downable for a club with less than optimal gates such as ours.
or for the players themselves.
the one thing we cant be criticised is holding out for the biggest possible bids for our players when they are eventually sold.
im not sure long was ever encoruaged. possibly sig, but that may also be disengenuous imo.
he said he didnt really want to go, but that could easily m,ean he was reluctant to, but had to go cos it was a great opportunity.

How? By actively, and ultimately successfully, moving on those outward bound players quicker than we have done over the last few years so that we can rebuild.

We're obviously restrained by offers coming in but I always get the impression we're waiting for things to happen instead of working to get business done quickly so we can move on and not miss out on replacements and valuable rebuilding time. It's not all about stopping players leaving or not accepting bids, it's about not getting into the situation you described earlier whereby we're rebuilding the side over Oct/Nov/Jan.

but that happens throughout football, buying clubs know that the closer they get to the end of the window, the more likelythey are likely to get a player at bargain price cos the selling club is desperate
happens everywhere not sure we, or you, or brian or JM can change that (possibly man u get alot of their business done at teh start of teh window, but they have a lot more clout to get it done, and not many clubs will hold their players back if UTD come calling)

[melonhead]

Sig didn't want to go as has been said many times, long however...no one can argue with that sale. Mills also was a far better centre back than anything left at the club now and we sold him too. Thats three players ( the spine of the team) from the last few seasons we've removed and not replaced with quality. You can't keep selling quality players and expect not to suffer on the pitch. We've received astronomical amounts in transfer fee's compared to everyone else in the football league in the last 3/4 seasons yet we still somehow cannot compete with them financially. No other club can boast anywhere close to over 40 million received in player sales yet we've invested how much of that in trying to maintain our team? I don't care whose fault it was/is anymore, as has been mentioned we vastly overspent on wages in the prem and we're still suffering so we know thats where the money has gone...we are still suffering from the clubs poor management of the premiership money. Our only hope is that we can clear all that and start fresh from this point on...the only problem with that is convincing any quality that may come through our academy ( lets face it that's the only place they are going to come with our spending power) that they should stay on at Reading and hope we get to the prem to appease them. Chances of that happening in today's game? Not very high as soon as someone from the prem comes calling. Really not a lot to look forward to in honesty...as soon as our young players start to gel and really come on..they'll be off and we'll be rebuilding continuously.

long was never not going to go if a prem team came in with a abig bid, he signed his extension on that promise, and wanted to go.
that we couldnt turn down 7 million for any of our players is irrelevant in that scenario.

regardless of your assertions that no other club etc- the accounts up to 2010 are out, there is no robbery going on, no squandering of resources(apart from in the 1st year back down- and that seemed sensible, while the players are still here, and the parachute money is coming in, to try and get back up as soon as possible)
at championship level we offwer a decent wage to decent experienced professionals, which means we can attract the liegertwoods, and the gorkss, and the mills, and the mcanuffs of this world, in the prem we offered at the lower end of the wage scale for that league, so you cant really moan there either.

also the idea that we should turn down 4 million for a player probably not worth half that in mills, or that we didnt replace him with a better player in Gorkss is laughable imo


what you seem upset about is the crazy world of football finance and player wages(which we cant change without suffering even greater loss of quality)
and the fact that other clubs seem to just ignore the fact that theyre losing money left right and centre.
not that the club is run badly, and JM is an ogre

Ivar hasnt played at ipswich due to injury- so it sounds like that decision was about right.
kish wanted more in wages than we could afford so we didnt put in an offer


only other problem decision is the sale of Sig. and if you cant ignore a 4 million loss, and cant see where else you can get that money, then we really had no choice there either.

[melonhead]

What a great headline on the OS, ''McDermott reflects on fine margins''. Not sure I'd call 1 shot in 90 odd minutes a fine margin.

depends if you want to look for negatives.


it was a hugely tight game(our 1st loss in 9), we had the better of the 1st half at least, and lost by a single goal in a second half where we ran out of ideas/legs
seems pretty fine to me.

[melonhead]

how doe we, or he challenge reality?
by ignoring it?
i just dont think 7 million bids are turn downable for a club with less than optimal gates such as ours.
or for the players themselves.
the one thing we cant be criticised is holding out for the biggest possible bids for our players when they are eventually sold.
im not sure long was ever encoruaged. possibly sig, but that may also be disengenuous imo.
he said he didnt really want to go, but that could easily m,ean he was reluctant to, but had to go cos it was a great opportunity.

I think you will find he was sent on his way despite telling the club he did not want to go. Source? His family members.

but i dont know his family.
i dont know how well you know his family, or how well th eperson who told you that knows his family

so im not sure if its a FACT, a fact, or just made up

[Hoop Blah]

but that happens throughout football, buying clubs know that the closer they get to the end of the window, the more likelythey are likely to get a player at bargain price cos the selling club is desperate
happens everywhere not sure we, or you, or brian or JM can change that (possibly man u get alot of their business done at teh start of teh window, but they have a lot more clout to get it done, and not many clubs will hold their players back if UTD come calling)

Not really, I'd say it's more likely the selling lcub are holding out for a specific figure and so the price goes up.

All depends on each club and the players state of mind and prefered outcome.

What I'm saying is that the club should look to get players out earlier so they can get on with rebuilding, not to maximise the price in either situation. There are plenty of players that move during July too. That's when I think we should be looking to do our business, not the end of the window.

[melonhead]

Sig didn't want to go as has been said many times, long however...no one can argue with that sale. Mills also was a far better centre back than anything left at the club now and we sold him too. Thats three players ( the spine of the team) from the last few seasons we've removed and not replaced with quality. You can't keep selling quality players and expect not to suffer on the pitch. We've received astronomical amounts in transfer fee's compared to everyone else in the football league in the last 3/4 seasons yet we still somehow cannot compete with them financially. No other club can boast anywhere close to over 40 million received in player sales yet we've invested how much of that in trying to maintain our team? I don't care whose fault it was/is anymore, as has been mentioned we vastly overspent on wages in the prem and we're still suffering so we know thats where the money has gone...we are still suffering from the clubs poor management of the premiership money. Our only hope is that we can clear all that and start fresh from this point on...the only problem with that is convincing any quality that may come through our academy ( lets face it that's the only place they are going to come with our spending power) that they should stay on at Reading and hope we get to the prem to appease them. Chances of that happening in today's game? Not very high as soon as someone from the prem comes calling. Really not a lot to look forward to in honesty...as soon as our young players start to gel and really come on..they'll be off and we'll be rebuilding continuously.

it's been said many times but never ever once proved that Sig didn't want to go

Find me one shred of evidence that says he was forced out

Are you deaf then (sorry no offence meant Spacey)? Have you not heard the interview that BBCRB had with the Sig when he returned to watch one of our games or are you just going to say he is a liar?

I and others have referred to that interview several times. It exists, it was broadcast. Suggest you ask Dellor or someone where you can find a copy of it. There you will find your smoking gun.

And even if you accept all the assurances that the players wanted to leave, we would have liked to keep them but had no option etc. how do you excuse the pitiful amount that the manager has been given to reinvest in buildingcthe squad back up after its strongest members had been sold? It is that latter factor more than anything which leaves McDermott with a thankless and probably impossible job and results in the performances and position that we are now experiencing more frequently.

Is Howard a lost cause?

I'm not sure he's ever coming back. It was the way when he went on loan to Millwall, McDermott said that he went "with our best wishes" sounded a bit like a farewell.

If so, a very big mistake on the part of the bald one. His best wishes have worked wonders for Howard and Millwall.

the interview with Sig said he didnt want to leave, but it could easily have meant id love to stay at reading forever, but i have to go as its a great opportunity that may never come again.(in fact thats exactly what he did say wasnt it?)

look at the accounts up to 2010- thats why we have spent what weve spent up to then. no massive consiracy, or fraud, just that we spend alot more than we earn on a yearly basis, and feel we have to do that to attract quality players, and in order to plug the hole we have to sell our best players(just like every other club below barcelona)
the accounts for 2010-11 will be out next year,and for 2011-2012 the year after that in them will show exactly where the money is/has gone.
and id guess like at all clubs that the vast majority has gone on wages and fees for players.(if you want to reduce wages, and fees, then wed have even less quality on show at games, so which is it you want?)

as for howard- i saw him play on numerous occasions- i cant remember more than one or two half decent games he had where he made a real creative impression, i cant remember a goal, i cant remember many assists. i remember a decent few games where he played with tabb in the middle and we won(but still cant really pinpoint anything that he did to make it so)
i hope he does well, maybe he just fits in more with the style at millwall,but to suggest that he ever did anything here to suggest he is the creative mastermind we need to pull us up the table is majorly erroneous imo.
although id happily have him back and give him a go.

[melonhead]

but that happens throughout football, buying clubs know that the closer they get to the end of the window, the more likelythey are likely to get a player at bargain price cos the selling club is desperate
happens everywhere not sure we, or you, or brian or JM can change that (possibly man u get alot of their business done at teh start of teh window, but they have a lot more clout to get it done, and not many clubs will hold their players back if UTD come calling)

Not really, I'd say it's more likely the selling lcub are holding out for a specific figure and so the price goes up.

All depends on each club and the players state of mind and prefered outcome.

What I'm saying is that the club should look to get players out earlier so they can get on with rebuilding, not to maximise the price in either situation. There are plenty of players that move during July too. That's when I think we should be looking to do our business, not the end of the window.

so if we went with a less than optimal price for long/sig,in order that we got them out early, so we knew what we had in the squad. we'd have sold them for less money(cue more outrage from our fans), still lost them, and had even less money to spend/fill black holes

its just not making any sense

[Hoop Blah]

I'd happily have lost the pair of them for a bit less if it meant we didn't spend two months twiddling our thumbs watching good targets go to the competition because we wouldn't bring in anyone before we lost players that we expected to leave (Sigurdsson was a shock for us fans but remember that the club had been in talks with the Germans for some time, reportedly even having them watch him in training).

Basically I think we need to either take a gamble on bringing someone in before we lose 'key' players or we don't hold out for the optimium price and work a bit harder to get our business done earlier. How much of an impact that would have the prices I have no idea, but I don't think it would that great.

Do I think starting the season with a settled team instead of waiting for December to find a pattern of play that works is preferable to an extra £500k in the bank? Yes I do.

[melonhead]

we cant sell until until an offer is recieved that meets our valuation.

im glad youd be so forgiving if we let long/sig go for 4 million instead of 7
i doubt half of our moaning fans would feel the same

im sure BM, NH, JM feels exactly the same. but it happens across football, im not sure how theyre meant to change all that, without the clout of a ferguson/UTD etc

[RoyalBlue]

I'd happily have lost the pair of them for a bit less if it meant we didn't spend two months twiddling our thumbs watching good targets go to the competition because we wouldn't bring in anyone before we lost players that we expected to leave (Sigurdsson was a shock for us fans but remember that the club had been in talks with the Germans for some time, reportedly even having them watch him in training).

Basically I think we need to either take a gamble on bringing someone in before we lose 'key' players or we don't hold out for the optimium price and work a bit harder to get our business done earlier. How much of an impact that would have the prices I have no idea, but I don't think it would that great.

Do I think starting the season with a settled team instead of waiting for December to find a pattern of play that works is preferable to an extra £500k in the bank? Yes I do.

I fully concur.

What's more, if we actually went out and signed a replacement before offloading the star, we would not face the problem of clubs thinking they can up their selling price because we have just banked a fortune from selling our star. So what we lose in one respect we might gain in another. Furthermore, we would no longer have to wait half the season before our latest rebuilt team starts to gel.

[Hoop Blah]

A lot of clubs do a lot of work to facilitate deals behind the scenes, you only have to look at agents fees and the like to know that.

I'm not talking about giving away millions of pounds in unachieved transfer fees, stop being so dramatic! How much did Southampton lose out on by selling Bale and Oxlade-Chamberlain long before deadlines? I'm suggesting a way I believe the club can improve the way we do things because, as you pointed out, we've spent significant parts of the last two autumns rebuilding and costing ourselves points because of our transfer policy.

Try actually reading and thinking instead of just trying to come up with daft reasons why the club can't improve or heaven forbid be in the wrong.

[Man Friday]

What a great headline on the OS, ''McDermott reflects on fine margins''. Not sure I'd call 1 shot in 90 odd minutes a fine margin.

It is if they had only one or two shots also.

[Northern Git]

how doe we, or he challenge reality?
by ignoring it?
i just dont think 7 million bids are turn downable for a club with less than optimal gates such as ours.
or for the players themselves.
the one thing we cant be criticised is holding out for the biggest possible bids for our players when they are eventually sold.
im not sure long was ever encoruaged. possibly sig, but that may also be disengenuous imo.
he said he didnt really want to go, but that could easily m,ean he was reluctant to, but had to go cos it was a great opportunity.

I think you will find he was sent on his way despite telling the club he did not want to go. Source? His family members.

but i dont know his family.
i dont know how well you know his family, or how well th eperson who told you that knows his family

so im not sure if its a FACT, a fact, or just made up

Fine, believe what you want sunshine, but if you took the trouble you would see that I never make 'definitive' statement unless I quote the source.

If I post an opinion I always say 'in my opinion', if I know something through my business contacts I never post it because it would be unprofessional.

So I will sit back and read, with amusement, the ill informed ramblings by many on here who go 'definitive' on a regular basis - this thread being a classic.

[Svlad Cjelli]

OMG! Are we dredging this up again?

Every single player says they don't want to leave a club - it's the politic thing to say. But there's a word of difference between saying you "don't want to leave" and recognising that your career and finances will benefit greatly by moving - and the two states are not mutually exclusive.

[melonhead]

I think you will find he was sent on his way despite telling the club he did not want to go. Source? His family members.

but i dont know his family.
i dont know how well you know his family, or how well th eperson who told you that knows his family

so im not sure if its a FACT, a fact, or just made up

Fine, believe what you want sunshine, but if you took the trouble you would see that I never make 'definitive' statement unless I quote the source.

If I post an opinion I always say 'in my opinion', if I know something through my business contacts I never post it because it would be unprofessional.

So I will sit back and read, with amusement, the ill informed ramblings by many on here who go 'definitive' on a regular basis - this thread being a classic.

LOL at Fine!
lol at sunshine
lol at going back through your posts and checking if all your definitive statements were accurate

FACT remains that you could say anything_ Brian mcdermot likes to eat baby chickens alive- i heard it definitively from his mum. and it wouldnt mean id believe it.
every time i heard sig speak on the matter it was with regret, but with clear yunderstanding that it was an opportunity to good to turn down.until I speak to his family, and they tell me he was pushed out, ill go with what the boy himself has said.