Opposition fans back from the game - 24/25 page 225 onwards

[RoyalX]

I find it incredible that people that watch football regularly can't appreciate that occasionally the better side can lose surely that's part of the appeal?

[elrey]

Possession stats are what have come out of Europe, especially Spain and Italy where they put a lot of emphasis on keeping possession. One reason is that they defend well by just keeping the ball, but it's their style of play. We've increasingly seen a change in the way football works at the highest levels in the UK because we're competing in Europe where the money is, where the prestige is, where the chance to show the world what we have.

The problem is we don't translate things properly from Spanish or Italian, or even German. We look at why Spain are doing well, then implement something similar and expect it to make results, what we don't do is analyse how to make things better and then put them in place. So we don't do possession football in a manner which is necessarily effective, but we do the stats because we see other countries doing it.

[CountryRoyal]

English football is quite different to that on the continent, bar maybe German. In Spanish, Italian...etc it's often attack v defence and less of a mid field battle like it is here.

[From Despair To Where?]

You've got to measure effectiveness. It was Boro's ineffectiveness on Saturday that meant they could have a lot of the ball, but rarely look dangerous.

Goals change games. Boro were set up to counter attack on the day. Another day could easily be a different result.

If you read the matchday thread on the Boro site, they were constantly moaning about having not won a game after falling behind for 18 months and Karanka not having a plan B. You have to have fluidity and flexibility in the way your team is set up. Boro failed to adapt to the situation. You can't expect to score the first goal and sit back, comfortable in possession and make the other team chase you every game. You have to have a plan B.

All they needed to do was look at the Ipswich, Bristol City, Burnley, and to a lesser extent the Brentford games, 4 games in 5 weeks, where we had scored early, soaked up pressure and hit the other team on the break. All four games, the opposition had the majority of possession, all four games, we looked comfortable and it was only the Ipswich game where we didn't create something approaching twice as many chances as the opposition. The instructions should have been keep it tight for the first 15 minutes and track the runners. Robson-Kanu was give acres of time and space to pick his cross and Williams ran 50 yds to get on the end of it without a Boro player anywhere near him.

[Winston Smith]

Yes but all I'm saying is that IF you have more possession, more shots, more shots on target, more corners, better passing...etc etc, more often than not that would suggest you are the better side. Surely?

no, no it wouldn't. my whole issue is with the word 'better'. the aim of football is not to have the most possession, take the most corners etc, its to score more goals and let in less goals than the opponent, and if you failed to do that then you were not better.

These individual details could mean something, in fact they could mean something huge to the match, they could also be meaningless. It all depends on the detail of that stat. How it was used, how effective it was, why it didn't help to achieve the ultimate aim etc. But modern day w*nky Sky Sports sponsored football seems to try and be convincing kids that a stat alone purely tells you something about the game. you could be fooled sometimes into thinking the aim of football in 2015 was to have the highest possession %.

Some time ago Joe Allen at Swansea was hailed by some media outlets as being a more accomplished midfielder than any of Barcelona's midfield as his pass completion rate was higher. yeah, Joe f****ing Allen. winning games didn't matter, collecting trophies was irrelevant, he had the highest pass completion rate so he was 'better'.

[Nameless]

Surely most people who have watched a few games of football can walk away from a game being able to say which was the better team (or that it was pretty even). You don't need any stats to know who was best, and it is perfectly possible for the better team to have won, lost or drawn.
It's not something that can be measured, although retrospectively you can look at stats and decide that they support what you intuitively know.
Before they invented stats we still knew who were the better team....

[Franchise FC]

A much better indicator of possession influencing a game would be to know what % of possession was in the opponents half.
That would eliminate the issue of passing around the back which is a bit like increasing your post count needlessly

You could have a stat that read something like

Possession in opponents half - Reading 30%
Possession in opponents half - Middlesbrough 28%
Possession in own half (total) - 42%

May give a more insightful view of how possession affects a game
(Of course, I made up the stats above)

[tmesis]

You've got to measure effectiveness. It was Boro's ineffectiveness on Saturday that meant they could have a lot of the ball, but rarely look dangerous.

Goals change games. Boro were set up to counter attack on the day. Another day could easily be a different result.

Yes, obviously, if they taken one or two of their chances, and we'd missed one or two of ours, we wouldn't have won.

The fact is though, despite dominating the possession stat, it always felt pretty comfortable. Another game, same possession stats, you could feel we were hanging on by our fingertips.

That's not about taking chances, as in both scenarios we could have won 2-0, yet both would be very different games to watch.

You have to look at at and ask what was it that meant Boro could have all that possession, yet rarely look like scoring? What were they failing to do that made it hard for them to have a shot, and why?

You could have twice the possession of another team, but if you require three times as many passes to have a shot as the other team, you'll probably lose.

[tmesis]

Surely most people who have watched a few games of football can walk away from a game being able to say which was the better team (or that it was pretty even). You don't need any stats to know who was best, and it is perfectly possible for the better team to have won, lost or drawn.
It's not something that can be measured, although retrospectively you can look at stats and decide that they support what you intuitively know.
Before they invented stats we still knew who were the better team....

in fairness, I don't think CountryRoyal is saying stats prove who the better team is, just that if a team has completely dominated a match, that will probably show up in the stats we have, as poor as they are.

We've all seen games where our team has been pummelled for the whole game, only to somehow nick a goal that earns a point or more, and it's a thing of beauty (and a right bugger when it happens the other way round).

Most of those games will have some lopsided stats. The thing is, it takes a mismatch like that for them to become semi-useful, as they don't really tell you a great deal otherwise.

[sandman]

Burnley fans pissing and moaning that Blackman "enticed" their now banned supporters to throw bottles at him. Typical football fans, can dish it out but can't take a bit back.

[tidus_mi2]

Burnley fans pissing and moaning that Blackman "enticed" their now banned supporters to throw bottles at him. Typical football fans, can dish it out but can't take a bit back.

If it's the forum I just looked at, it's one bloke moaning and the rest laughing at him.

[paultheroyal]

Thought this might come in handy..

BIRMINGHAM CITY http://www.smallheathalliance.com/list.php?1

BLACKBURN ROVERS http://www.brfcc.com/mb/

BOLTON WANDERERS http://www.the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/

BRENTFORD http://www.griffinpark.org/forums/forum.php

BRIGHTON & HOVE ALBION http://www.northstandchat.com/forumd...-The-Big-Board

BURNLEY http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=104

CARDIFF CITY http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk http://www.ccmb.co.uk/fudforum/

CHARLTON ATHLETIC http://intothevalley.proboards.com

DERBY COUNTY http://dcfcfans.uk

FULHAM http://www.friendsoffulham.com/forum/index.php

HUDDERSFIELD TOWN http://downatthemac.proboards.com

HULL CITY http://www.hullcityindependent.net/?page=forum

IPSWICH TOWN http://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/

LEEDS UNITED http://www.lufctalk.com http://www.waccoe.com/

MIDDLESBROUGH http://www.oneboro.co.uk/forum/ http://fansonline.net/middlesbrough/mb/

MK DONS http://www.concreteroundabout.co.uk/phpbb/

NOTTINGHAM FOREST http://www.forestforum.co.uk

PRESTON NORTH END http://www.pne-online.net/forum/forum.php

QUEENS PARK RANGERS http://www.wearetherangersboys.com/f...hp?11-QPR-CHAT

ROTHERHAM UNITED http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=450

SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY http://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/ind...eld-wednesday/

WOLVERHAMPTON WANDERERS http://www.wolvesforum.co.uk/forum.php

Let's have a bump

[From Despair To Where?]

The only appropriate punishment would be to ban Blackman from Turf Moor for the rest of the season.

[Tails]

Possession stats are what have come out of Europe, especially Spain and Italy where they put a lot of emphasis on keeping possession. One reason is that they defend well by just keeping the ball, but it's their style of play. We've increasingly seen a change in the way football works at the highest levels in the UK because we're competing in Europe where the money is, where the prestige is, where the chance to show the world what we have.

The problem is we don't translate things properly from Spanish or Italian, or even German. We look at why Spain are doing well, then implement something similar and expect it to make results, what we don't do is analyse how to make things better and then put them in place. So we don't do possession football in a manner which is necessarily effective, but we do the stats because we see other countries doing it.

It's like we don't have any managers/players from the continent.....oh.

[Brosef Stalin]

It is also less tiring to play with the ball then chasing after it.

I don't fully buy this argument. The attackers equally have to move into space and cover as much ground (backed up by distance run stats). You could argue there may be a psychological difference

[Ian Royal]

It is also less tiring to play with the ball then chasing after it.

I don't fully buy this argument. The attackers equally have to move into space and cover as much ground (backed up by distance run stats). You could argue there may be a psychological difference

My view (which might not be backed up by fact) is that without the ball you're constantly chasing and reacting to someone else which means more mental fatigue, little opportunity to relax and the pace and distance you go is dictated by someone else, not what you're comfortable with.

Whereas movement with (but off) the ball is easier to do at a generally slower more relaxed pace combined with either drifting gently out of someone's view and into space or with a short burst of pace from walking/jogging/stand still

Essentially most of the defensive side has to be in position most of the time, whilst only 2 or 3 of the attacking team have to find space at once and only for a brief moment to receice the ball.

[CountryRoyal]

Wales haven't scored so they're obviously not the better team...

[JIM]

2-0 Wales were obviously the better team

[Sutekh]

Wales haven't scored so they're obviously not the better team...

Quite obviously, if it had finished 0-0 or they had lost they wouldn't have been.

[Forbury Lion]

That would eliminate the issue of passing around the back which is a bit like increasing your post count needlessly

It's not quite the same.

If you pass the ball around at the back you are denying the opposition the ball, drawing them in towards you which can create gaps to exploit, slowing the pace of the game, winding up the opposition

If you post things that add no value you are not denying others the ability to post, although maybe you are slowing the pace of the thread and probably winding up some of the opposition in the process which may cause gaps you can exploit, if they take the bait.