England - the future....

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Old Man Andrews
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Re: England - the future....

by Old Man Andrews » 11 Sep 2019 10:55

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We don't have a Xavi or Pirlo, so Southgate will need some time to try players in different midfields until we find a formula that works


Defintiely agree with this. Henderson and Rice doesn't really work for me. Rice is someone you'd potentially add to a midfield if you're 2-0 with 70 minutes gone to sure it up a bit, not a starter for me. I would leave Henderson as the Anchorman and have a more creative player just in front of him. Who that is I do not know.

I'd definitely give a Winks, Henderson, Maddison combination a try. But even if it is better than what we currently do, I'd still be concerned to see how it matches up against teams like Spain, France and Belgium.

Our frontline on the other hand - would you say there will be a better one on show at Euro 2020? I don't think so. They won't get the chance to show it if our midfield is outclassed though.

I worry Southgate will always revert back to Rashford on the wing. Sancho should be nailed on for a starting place IMO, saw him a lot for Dortmund last season and he is more or less unplayable at times. Rashford is a great sub to have when you're chasing a game and need to go two up front.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 11 Sep 2019 11:00

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WestYorksRoyal I mean, we don't have a Xavi, Pirlo or Modric. But I just feel there are better options than what we choose to pick.

I guess Scholes was in that class and was criminally wasted by England


It's not about the individual players, but about the lack of technical ability and mental strength endemic to the pool of players that any England manager has to pick from.

Until that is fixed, England won't be. But I guess a few posts about shuffling chairs on the deck of the Titanic will keep work away for a few days.

This is simply not true any more and is a bit of a lazy stereotype. It was true in 2006 - 2010 when our golden generation were found out at the top level, but it seems like the FA have learned from it.

Players like Foden, Sancho, Hudson-Odoi, Gibbs-White and Mount are genuinely exciting products with the technical ability you refer to.

Looking at more current players, Winks, Maddison and Gomez are technically sound. Even Stones has the ability on the ball; it's just his defending that's the issue.

Our problem is that we're behind the curve. None of the players referenced are world class players at the peak of their careers. Hopefully this will come as academies continue producing players like these off their conveyor belts. It's certainly a better position than we were in 10 years ago.


Oh, I know that the FA have started doing something about it but to say its only true 2006-2010 when in more recent world cups and Euros its been the same problems (2016 standing out in the defeat to Iceland, but also in the failure to break down Slovakia in the preceding game).

I also don't think the players are as good as you think they are. They're sound, sure, that really is the best word for it.

It'll be players, like Sancho, who are brought up away from the English game that will get there first, imho.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 11 Sep 2019 11:04

Actually, even in the recent youth game I watched (England vs Italy), you could see a step difference in how the Italian kids approached the game. They reached the final, iirc, while England lost on penalties in the semi - at least they're getting their practise in!

Bobby Duncan, now at Fiorentina, was my One To Watch, fwiw.

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 11 Sep 2019 11:07

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It's not about the individual players, but about the lack of technical ability and mental strength endemic to the pool of players that any England manager has to pick from.

Until that is fixed, England won't be. But I guess a few posts about shuffling chairs on the deck of the Titanic will keep work away for a few days.

This is simply not true any more and is a bit of a lazy stereotype. It was true in 2006 - 2010 when our golden generation were found out at the top level, but it seems like the FA have learned from it.

Players like Foden, Sancho, Hudson-Odoi, Gibbs-White and Mount are genuinely exciting products with the technical ability you refer to.

Looking at more current players, Winks, Maddison and Gomez are technically sound. Even Stones has the ability on the ball; it's just his defending that's the issue.

Our problem is that we're behind the curve. None of the players referenced are world class players at the peak of their careers. Hopefully this will come as academies continue producing players like these off their conveyor belts. It's certainly a better position than we were in 10 years ago.


Oh, I know that the FA have started doing something about it but to say its only true 2006-2010 when in more recent world cups and Euros its been the same problems (2016 standing out in the defeat to Iceland, but also in the failure to break down Slovakia in the preceding game).

I also don't think the players are as good as you think they are. They're sound, sure, that really is the best word for it.

It'll be players, like Sancho, who are brought up away from the English game that will get there first, imho.

Sancho spent his formative years at Watford and Man City. The main difference between him and Foden is that he has jumped to a slightly smaller club to get first team exposure, but he went over to Dortmund with the ability and skills he had learned in England. I hope more young players follow his example.

I genuinely think in the next 5-10 years we'll see the fruits of EPPP and the St. George's project and be making semi finals and competing for trophies on a consistent basis. World Cup 2026 a more realistic target than 2022

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 11 Sep 2019 12:01

stealthpapes It'll be players, like Sancho, who are brought up away from the English game that will get there first, imho.


Germany may become a good finishing school for young English talent but for the likes of Sancho their formative years are still over here.

Interestingly I think Germany have suffered a similar fate to England when it comes to turning good young prospects into world class finished articles. I don't follow their squad closely at all, but I'm sure I heard a decent list of very good young players who've failed to live up to their initial hype, the likes of Mario Gotze being a good example?


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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 11 Sep 2019 12:06

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stealthpapes It'll be players, like Sancho, who are brought up away from the English game that will get there first, imho.


Germany may become a good finishing school for young English talent but for the likes of Sancho their formative years are still over here.

Interestingly I think Germany have suffered a similar fate to England when it comes to turning good young prospects into world class finished articles. I don't follow their squad closely at all, but I'm sure I heard a decent list of very good young players who've failed to live up to their initial hype, the likes of Mario Gotze being a good example?


The latest team, sure, but the 2014 World Cup winning squad was a triumph for their approach, wasn't it? Mueller, Schurrle, Hummels, Ozil, Khedira etc all came into that tournament aged 23-25 and already with 40-50 caps to their name.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 11 Sep 2019 12:10

Hoop Blah
stealthpapes It'll be players, like Sancho, who are brought up away from the English game that will get there first, imho.


Germany may become a good finishing school for young English talent but for the likes of Sancho their formative years are still over here.

Interestingly I think Germany have suffered a similar fate to England when it comes to turning good young prospects into world class finished articles. I don't follow their squad closely at all, but I'm sure I heard a decent list of very good young players who've failed to live up to their initial hype, the likes of Mario Gotze being a good example?


I think that particular one is a poor example, as he spent 2 + years suffering with a fairly serious metabolic illness.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 11 Sep 2019 12:10

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stealthpapes It'll be players, like Sancho, who are brought up away from the English game that will get there first, imho.


Germany may become a good finishing school for young English talent but for the likes of Sancho their formative years are still over here.

Interestingly I think Germany have suffered a similar fate to England when it comes to turning good young prospects into world class finished articles. I don't follow their squad closely at all, but I'm sure I heard a decent list of very good young players who've failed to live up to their initial hype, the likes of Mario Gotze being a good example?


The latest team, sure, but the 2014 World Cup winning squad was a triumph for their approach, wasn't it? Mueller, Schurrle, Hummels, Ozil, Khedira etc all came into that tournament aged 23-25 and already with 40-50 caps to their name.


... and precisely this, obviously.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 11 Sep 2019 12:42

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Germany may become a good finishing school for young English talent but for the likes of Sancho their formative years are still over here.

Interestingly I think Germany have suffered a similar fate to England when it comes to turning good young prospects into world class finished articles. I don't follow their squad closely at all, but I'm sure I heard a decent list of very good young players who've failed to live up to their initial hype, the likes of Mario Gotze being a good example?


The latest team, sure, but the 2014 World Cup winning squad was a triumph for their approach, wasn't it? Mueller, Schurrle, Hummels, Ozil, Khedira etc all came into that tournament aged 23-25 and already with 40-50 caps to their name.


... and precisely this, obviously.


Yeah, I think the discussion was about those that are in their early to mid-20s who've not kicked on. Not the previous generation.

I'm not sure Schurrle ever really fulfilled the potential like some of the others, but that's splitting hairs. Agreed on the health issues that make Gotze a bit of a poor example though.


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Re: England - the future....

by John Smith » 13 Sep 2019 16:19

I'm starting to get a bit tired of Southgate's "invincibility" strategy - by forever picking youngsters and claiming the squad to be in a state of development he's trying to make this a job for life. The public want results now, not to see how Chelsea fringe players might fare in twenty minute cameos. Should we be drawing up a shortlist of replacements for the Euros?

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Re: England - the future....

by Hendo » 13 Sep 2019 16:31

John Smith I'm starting to get a bit tired of Southgate's "invincibility" strategy - by forever picking youngsters and claiming the squad to be in a state of development he's trying to make this a job for life. The public want results now, not to see how Chelsea fringe players might fare in twenty minute cameos. Should we be drawing up a shortlist of replacements for the Euros?


21 wins in 37 games not enough?

Pretty sure he is going to be in a job for a while and pretty sure you're on the WUM.

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Re: England - the future....

by Silver Fox » 13 Sep 2019 16:35

Love the way john Smith seems to think he's some sort of football expert but he couldn't be further from the truth

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 19 Sep 2019 12:50

Tammy Abraham has been making noises about a switch to Nigeria, or refusing to rule it out at least.


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Re: England - the future....

by Royalclapper » 22 Sep 2019 07:16

I like Southgate in that he's always seemed determined to change what was a decrepit and outdated national set-up and create a more modern and forward looking team that's fit for purpose.

It's a question of how sustainable he can make it for others to follow?

The national team still has pride of place in Germany at the expense of their league whereas here the PL and its accompanying money machine is fairly obviously put first and foremost. I could even imagine that developing native players is seen almost as a diversity tick box exercise for big PL clubs as they can buy ready made 'off the shelf' players as and when they like from almost anywhere.

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Re: England - the future....

by Royalclapper » 22 Sep 2019 07:36

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stealthpapes It'll be players, like Sancho, who are brought up away from the English game that will get there first, imho.


Germany may become a good finishing school for young English talent but for the likes of Sancho their formative years are still over here.

Interestingly I think Germany have suffered a similar fate to England when it comes to turning good young prospects into world class finished articles. I don't follow their squad closely at all, but I'm sure I heard a decent list of very good young players who've failed to live up to their initial hype, the likes of Mario Gotze being a good example?


The latest team, sure, but the 2014 World Cup winning squad was a triumph for their approach, wasn't it? Mueller, Schurrle, Hummels, Ozil, Khedira etc all came into that tournament aged 23-25 and already with 40-50 caps to their name.


A slightly cynical and suspicious part of me watched that tournament thinking Germany are replicating Spain's former successful style........your point stands though, they were mostly mature international players who came through the system and they would of course have needed to be of high calibre to even copy a sophisticated style and execute it properly.

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 11 Oct 2019 20:15

In the last international break I ranted about choosing Rice and Henderson as a combo over Winks. We're now being dominated by the Czech Republic, let alone Belgium or France. Why does Southgate not see the obvious need for Winks? Every fan and pundit can. Are we all wrong?

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Re: England - the future....

by Zip » 11 Oct 2019 20:19

Very poor so far. The midfield has been non existent

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Re: England - the future....

by The Enfield Royal71 » 11 Oct 2019 21:26

Our defence is a serious problem.

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 11 Oct 2019 21:29

The Enfield Royal71 Our defence is a serious problem.

Picking our best options may help. TAA and Chilwell. I know Gomez is out of form, but surely we can do better than Keane?

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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 11 Oct 2019 21:30

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The Enfield Royal71 Our defence is a serious problem.

Picking our best options may help. TAA and Chilwell. I know Gomez is out of form, but surely we can do better than Keane?


Keane has looked awful

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