Rival Watch

[John Smith]

Is it mathematically possible for West Brom to get relegated…

The ‘Gourlay effect’ is well and truly active….

The master at creating defeat and failure where victory and success seemed almost inevitable.

Another Sunderland in the making...?

[PATRIQT]

Is it mathematically possible for West Brom to get relegated…

The ‘Gourlay effect’ is well and truly active….

The master at creating defeat and failure where victory and success seemed almost inevitable.

Another Sunderland in the making...?

Another Reading in the making.

[Mr Optimist]

Is it mathematically possible for West Brom to get relegated…

The ‘Gourlay effect’ is well and truly active….

The master at creating defeat and failure where victory and success seemed almost inevitable.

Another Sunderland in the making...?

I was looking at a WBA forum and someone on there said their situation made them think of “Sunderland ‘til I die”….

[morganb]

According to:

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguir ... 7679105024

Stoke City lost £55m in year to end of March 2021 compared to £87m loss the previous season but appear to be within EFL FFP loss limit as no points deduction.

Not sure how no points deduction?

[Dirk Gently]

According to:

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguir ... 7679105024

Stoke City lost £55m in year to end of March 2021 compared to £87m loss the previous season but appear to be within EFL FFP loss limit as no points deduction.

Not sure how no points deduction?

The loss is the "Football Club and Facilities" part of Bet365's overall accounts, so doesn't take the FC in isolation. Bet365 do all sorts of clever accountancy things.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

According to:

https://mobile.twitter.com/KieranMaguir ... 7679105024

Stoke City lost £55m in year to end of March 2021 compared to £87m loss the previous season but appear to be within EFL FFP loss limit as no points deduction.

Not sure how no points deduction?

The loss is the "Football Club and Facilities" part of Bet365's overall accounts, so doesn't take the FC in isolation. Bet365 do all sorts of clever accountancy things.

How is that fair on the rest of the league? I presume facilities includes the Bet365 facilities and not just the clubs? How can you put different entities together and combine their finances?

We may as well have put Football Club and Facilities in our accounting practices to show the Profit/Loss of both Renhe Sports Management and Reading FC under that title.

[Dirk Gently]

How is that fair on the rest of the league? I presume facilities includes the Bet365 facilities and not just the clubs? How can you put different entities together and combine their finances?

Short answer is it's not - the Coates family have been taking the p*ss for ages.

[Stranded]

How is that fair on the rest of the league? I presume facilities includes the Bet365 facilities and not just the clubs? How can you put different entities together and combine their finances?

Short answer is it's not - the Coates family have been taking the p*ss for ages.

This but unless it is expressly against league rules, not much that can be done.

As for breaching FFP, I believe the permitted losses calcs still include a PL year which has a higher permitted threshold, so they may well sneak under as a result of that.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

How is that fair on the rest of the league? I presume facilities includes the Bet365 facilities and not just the clubs? How can you put different entities together and combine their finances?

Short answer is it's not - the Coates family have been taking the p*ss for ages.

This but unless it is expressly against league rules, not much that can be done.

As for breaching FFP, I believe the permitted losses calcs still include a PL year which has a higher permitted threshold, so they may well sneak under as a result of that.

They were relegated from the PL in 2017/18, we are now in 2021/22 so we are 4 years on, so perhaps yes one year of them being in the PL from the 17/18 season. That's fair enough though, I can't complain with that, but it's completely unfair that you can basically lump all your entities into one and class that as your "Facilities and Football Club".

[tidus_mi2]

How is that fair on the rest of the league? I presume facilities includes the Bet365 facilities and not just the clubs? How can you put different entities together and combine their finances?

Short answer is it's not - the Coates family have been taking the p*ss for ages.

This but unless it is expressly against league rules, not much that can be done.

As for breaching FFP, I believe the permitted losses calcs still include a PL year which has a higher permitted threshold, so they may well sneak under as a result of that.

It only brings the total allowed losses from £39m to £55m, can't see how the squeeze under that.

[Stranded]

Short answer is it's not - the Coates family have been taking the p*ss for ages.

This but unless it is expressly against league rules, not much that can be done.

As for breaching FFP, I believe the permitted losses calcs still include a PL year which has a higher permitted threshold, so they may well sneak under as a result of that.

They were relegated from the PL in 2017/18, we are now in 2021/22 so we are 4 years on, so perhaps yes one year of them being in the PL from the 17/18 season. That's fair enough though, I can't complain with that, but it's completely unfair that you can basically lump all your entities into one and class that as your "Facilities and Football Club".

Yeah calcs are 4 years at the mo so that last PL year will still be in there.

Completely agree on the accounting side but it is what it is. Bet365 also don't like to breakdown where their income comes from geographically, which is starting to generate a few questions in the current climate.

[Stranded]

Short answer is it's not - the Coates family have been taking the p*ss for ages.

This but unless it is expressly against league rules, not much that can be done.

As for breaching FFP, I believe the permitted losses calcs still include a PL year which has a higher permitted threshold, so they may well sneak under as a result of that.

It only brings the total allowed losses from £39m to £55m, can't see how the squeeze under that.

Initial view seems to be that they just about might be - guess we'll find out next season.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

In the current climate of many clubs staking claims against other clubs, maybe not in terms of the legal side of things, but certainly in terms of the moral aspect of finances, I do think ourselves, Derby, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham, who have all suffered points deductions in recent years, would probably be well-placed to complain to the EFL regarding this financial practice.

It sounds like a different version of ourselves, Derby, Sheff Wednesday and Villa buying our stadiums to bypass financial constraints.

[tidus_mi2]

In the current climate of many clubs staking claims against other clubs, maybe not in terms of the legal side of things, but certainly in terms of the moral aspect of finances, I do think ourselves, Derby, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham, who have all suffered points deductions in recent years, would probably be well-placed to complain to the EFL regarding this financial practice.

It sounds like a different version of ourselves, Derby, Sheff Wednesday and Villa buying our stadiums to bypass financial constraints.

It really is this, they either have to be consistent with their punishments or compensate as for the embargos and points deduction.

In a weird way I'm actually glad we had the embargoes and business plan though as it forced the owners to rethink the financial set up at the club and may well have us better set for the long term that might not have happened if the owners were allowed to keep doing whatever they wanted.

[Stranded]

EFL meeting today and naturally Derby will be top of the agenda - be interesting to see what comes out of it. Imagine another extension to sort things out with a final deadline in say 2 weeks.

We are down to the last 1/4 of the season now, so if Derby are to be expelled it needs to be soon to give clubs a chance to reassess. Would be interesting for example if they let Derby play this weekend, a Barnsley player breaks his leg and then 10 days later Derby are expelled. Would give Barnsley a good case against the EFL if that were to happen.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

In the current climate of many clubs staking claims against other clubs, maybe not in terms of the legal side of things, but certainly in terms of the moral aspect of finances, I do think ourselves, Derby, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham, who have all suffered points deductions in recent years, would probably be well-placed to complain to the EFL regarding this financial practice.

It sounds like a different version of ourselves, Derby, Sheff Wednesday and Villa buying our stadiums to bypass financial constraints.

It really is this, they either have to be consistent with their punishments or compensate as for the embargos and points deduction.

In a weird way I'm actually glad we had the embargoes and business plan though as it forced the owners to rethink the financial set up at the club and may well have us better set for the long term that might not have happened if the owners were allowed to keep doing whatever they wanted.

It's there to our detriment in the short-term but potentially support in the long-term. It depends how the EFL view it though. They won't want clubs to overspend as they fear they will go out of business and that's why they have restrictions on what can be spent but, ultimately, our owner could very easily start again with his plans, spend too much which he can afford (but not the club) in an attempt to reach the PL again. Yes, the punishment would be more but not a lot stops him doing it again. The whole FFP and Profit & Sustainability model needs to be regulated, not just a set of rules and then impose sanctions if a club doesn't go up. Having these rules basically says that you can cheat for 3 years, get promoted and then wash your hands with it all i.e. Villa.

Wage caps and maybe even spending caps need to be a necessity though to make this happen. They've got it in League's One and Two.

[Pepe the Horseman]

Derby have magicked up some cash and have now proved they've got the funds to keep going til end of season.

[tidus_mi2]

Derby have magicked up some cash and have now proved they've got the funds to keep going til end of season.

I'm not sure they've proven anything, it seems to be a forecast from the administrators.

[Stranded]

Derby have magicked up some cash and have now proved they've got the funds to keep going til end of season.

I'm not sure they've proven anything, it seems to be a forecast from the administrators.

Just been announced that they've sold Kamil Jozwiak to a side in the US for a fee, so that likely gives them the funds needed.

[Hound]

fair enough. apparently cost them £4m and got them 1 goal and 3 assists in 58 appearances. Pretty special that.