Rival Watch

[blythspartan]

Forest were abysmal tonight, Spence looked a shadow of himself. I really dislike Bournemouth but they deserved to win. The potential playoff teams look pretty poor this season. I wouldn’t bet against Forest but I’ll probably be rooting for Huddersfield.

I am expecting us to be relegation fodder again next season but there are plenty of examples of where with the right manager, a good blend of youth and experience and a togetherness fortunes can turnaround quite quickly. Lots of mediocre sides in the Championship so we could be challenging again in 2 or 3 seasons time IF we can survive next season.

[Nameless]

Christ surely 3 seasons of parachute money EVERY time you get relegated needs to be looked at, how the fcuk can other championship clubs compete with that?

If a club gets promoted within 3 years of relegation the parachute money for those years gets spread amongst the other Championship clubs. So most clubs are better off if the same 6 clubs just swap places every season.....(not actually done the maths on this, it might not quite work out !)

[tidus_mi2]

Christ surely 3 seasons of parachute money EVERY time you get relegated needs to be looked at, how the fcuk can other championship clubs compete with that?

If a club gets promoted within 3 years of relegation the parachute money for those years gets spread amongst the other Championship clubs. So most clubs are better off if the same 6 clubs just swap places every season.....(not actually done the maths on this, it might not quite work out !)

That hasn't been a thing for quite a while now.

[Snowflake Royal]

Christ surely 3 seasons of parachute money EVERY time you get relegated needs to be looked at, how the fcuk can other championship clubs compete with that?

If a club gets promoted within 3 years of relegation the parachute money for those years gets spread amongst the other Championship clubs. So most clubs are better off if the same 6 clubs just swap places every season.....(not actually done the maths on this, it might not quite work out !)

Are you sure that's still a thing. It used to be, but I've a vague feeling it got scrapped quite a while ago and goes back to the PL now... could be wrong.

EDIT: thanks tidus

Probably the single most egregious thing about the whole business.

[NathStPaul]

Christ surely 3 seasons of parachute money EVERY time you get relegated needs to be looked at, how the fcuk can other championship clubs compete with that?

If a club gets promoted within 3 years of relegation the parachute money for those years gets spread amongst the other Championship clubs. So most clubs are better off if the same 6 clubs just swap places every season.....(not actually done the maths on this, it might not quite work out !)

Are you sure that's still a thing. It used to be, but I've a vague feeling it got scrapped quite a while ago and goes back to the PL now... could be wrong.

EDIT: thanks tidus

Probably the single most egregious thing about the whole business.

Yeah I think the parachute payment system is something we can all agree on, its completely ridiculous in its current form.

As I understand it:

Team A get promoted, they get a share of the Premier League TV rights.

They spend a lot of money on transfer fees and wages.

Team A then get relegated and have a huge wage bill and loss for next season.

That loss is negted by their first parachute payment which then allows them to keep hold of their better players.

Team A go on to receive further dreasing payments for the next two seasons.

What I don't understand is why more Championship sides didn't just rip off the Brentford business model. They invested in young talent from League 1 and 2 along with some players from Europe, they then sold a lot of these players for a huge profit which went back into the club to make them sustainable. They cut costs by removing their youth set up and focussing only on their first and under 23's. It does work if you have the right scouting set up and infrastructure and more importantly than anything the right ownership.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

I think Brentford scrapped their U23's in favour of a B team as it stopped other clubs poaching players in the UK. It may have been cost cutting as well, but I know they did it for the former reason as well.

Problem is, you've got to have a good amount of money to do it as well. It all looks good and well on paper, of course it is, but they've got scouting links in Denmark with their sister club, FC Midtyjlland, as well as their wages-to-turnover ratio was second only to ours I believe at 185%, this was either the season they lost in the play offs or last season, I can't remember the exact season (or figure, but it's around 185% I think if memory serves) but it was in the last couple of seasons I believe when that figure was posted.

It takes a lot of cogs in the wheel to work, but obviously it's very rewarding and looks good. The scouting method/system needs to be determined, you then need to buy players that can fit into a certain system, the players need to fit the coaches style, the coaches then need to get the best out of, and subsequently, improve those players so they can be sold on for a profit etc.

[Snowflake Royal]

If a club gets promoted within 3 years of relegation the parachute money for those years gets spread amongst the other Championship clubs. So most clubs are better off if the same 6 clubs just swap places every season.....(not actually done the maths on this, it might not quite work out !)

Are you sure that's still a thing. It used to be, but I've a vague feeling it got scrapped quite a while ago and goes back to the PL now... could be wrong.

EDIT: thanks tidus

Probably the single most egregious thing about the whole business.

Yeah I think the parachute payment system is something we can all agree on, its completely ridiculous in its current form.

As I understand it:

Team A get promoted, they get a share of the Premier League TV rights.

They spend a lot of money on transfer fees and wages.

Team A then get relegated and have a huge wage bill and loss for next season.

That loss is negted by their first parachute payment which then allows them to keep hold of their better players.

Team A go on to receive further dreasing payments for the next two seasons.

What I don't understand is why more Championship sides didn't just rip off the Brentford business model. They invested in young talent from League 1 and 2 along with some players from Europe, they then sold a lot of these players for a huge profit which went back into the club to make them sustainable. They cut costs by removing their youth set up and focussing only on their first and under 23's. It does work if you have the right scouting set up and infrastructure and more importantly than anything the right ownership.

Because its hard and the pool of available talent is too small to allow many clubs to do it successfully, probably.

When unused parachute payments were split amongst the rest of the division it helped even the playing field with some surprise income.

[NathStPaul]

Are you sure that's still a thing. It used to be, but I've a vague feeling it got scrapped quite a while ago and goes back to the PL now... could be wrong.

EDIT: thanks tidus

Probably the single most egregious thing about the whole business.

Yeah I think the parachute payment system is something we can all agree on, its completely ridiculous in its current form.

As I understand it:

Team A get promoted, they get a share of the Premier League TV rights.

They spend a lot of money on transfer fees and wages.

Team A then get relegated and have a huge wage bill and loss for next season.

That loss is negted by their first parachute payment which then allows them to keep hold of their better players.

Team A go on to receive further dreasing payments for the next two seasons.

What I don't understand is why more Championship sides didn't just rip off the Brentford business model. They invested in young talent from League 1 and 2 along with some players from Europe, they then sold a lot of these players for a huge profit which went back into the club to make them sustainable. They cut costs by removing their youth set up and focussing only on their first and under 23's. It does work if you have the right scouting set up and infrastructure and more importantly than anything the right ownership.

Because its hard and the pool of available talent is too small to allow many clubs to do it successfully, probably.

Would argue it is harder to try and make ends meet the way we have done it for the past few seasons.

I'd at least like our recruitment team (use the terms loosely) to have drawn up a list of the better League 1 and 2 players out of contract this summer, it really wouldn't be that hard to do. I have absolutely no faith in this happening though.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Yeah I think the parachute payment system is something we can all agree on, its completely ridiculous in its current form.

As I understand it:

Team A get promoted, they get a share of the Premier League TV rights.

They spend a lot of money on transfer fees and wages.

Team A then get relegated and have a huge wage bill and loss for next season.

That loss is negted by their first parachute payment which then allows them to keep hold of their better players.

Team A go on to receive further dreasing payments for the next two seasons.

What I don't understand is why more Championship sides didn't just rip off the Brentford business model. They invested in young talent from League 1 and 2 along with some players from Europe, they then sold a lot of these players for a huge profit which went back into the club to make them sustainable. They cut costs by removing their youth set up and focussing only on their first and under 23's. It does work if you have the right scouting set up and infrastructure and more importantly than anything the right ownership.

Because its hard and the pool of available talent is too small to allow many clubs to do it successfully, probably.

Would argue it is harder to try and make ends meet the way we have done it for the past few seasons.

I'd at least like our recruitment team (use the terms loosely) to have drawn up a list of the better League 1 and 2 players out of contract this summer, it really wouldn't be that hard to do. I have absolutely no faith in this happening though.

From the owner's point of view, if they are willing to fund it then it doesn't really matter to them. Obviously they've done it too much, which is where it should change.

I'd assume that most of the better L1/2 players would be under contract somewhere and we'd need to pay for them. I can't think of many off the top of my head in recent times that have been free agents? We don't want to fall into the trap of being like Ipswich where they just recruited players from L1, who were only at L1 level.

[NathStPaul]

Because its hard and the pool of available talent is too small to allow many clubs to do it successfully, probably.

Would argue it is harder to try and make ends meet the way we have done it for the past few seasons.

I'd at least like our recruitment team (use the terms loosely) to have drawn up a list of the better League 1 and 2 players out of contract this summer, it really wouldn't be that hard to do. I have absolutely no faith in this happening though.

From the owner's point of view, if they are willing to fund it then it doesn't really matter to them. Obviously they've done it too much, which is where it should change.

I'd assume that most of the better L1/2 players would be under contract somewhere and we'd need to pay for them. I can't think of many off the top of my head in recent times that have been free agents? We don't want to fall into the trap of being like Ipswich where they just recruited players from L1, who were only at L1 level.

Josh Laurent?

There are going to several out of contract League 1 and 2 players who are worth having a look at. If we had a proper scouting structure in place at the club then we could have identified them.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Would argue it is harder to try and make ends meet the way we have done it for the past few seasons.

I'd at least like our recruitment team (use the terms loosely) to have drawn up a list of the better League 1 and 2 players out of contract this summer, it really wouldn't be that hard to do. I have absolutely no faith in this happening though.

From the owner's point of view, if they are willing to fund it then it doesn't really matter to them. Obviously they've done it too much, which is where it should change.

I'd assume that most of the better L1/2 players would be under contract somewhere and we'd need to pay for them. I can't think of many off the top of my head in recent times that have been free agents? We don't want to fall into the trap of being like Ipswich where they just recruited players from L1, who were only at L1 level.

Josh Laurent?

There are going to several out of contract League 1 and 2 players who are worth having a look at. If we had a proper scouting structure in place at the club then we could have identified them.

Yeah fair point about Laurent, the most obvious one. But there are not too many in the grand scheme of things.

I don't doubt we could potentially unearth a gem from out of contract lower league players, we've been linked with a couple, it's just whether it's worth the time, effort and cost to actually scout in that area. If it works, great, but it's a pretty big risk for obvious reasons and if it fails then it doesn't cover us in glory.

[NathStPaul]

From the owner's point of view, if they are willing to fund it then it doesn't really matter to them. Obviously they've done it too much, which is where it should change.

I'd assume that most of the better L1/2 players would be under contract somewhere and we'd need to pay for them. I can't think of many off the top of my head in recent times that have been free agents? We don't want to fall into the trap of being like Ipswich where they just recruited players from L1, who were only at L1 level.

Josh Laurent?

There are going to several out of contract League 1 and 2 players who are worth having a look at. If we had a proper scouting structure in place at the club then we could have identified them.

Yeah fair point about Laurent, the most obvious one. But there are not too many in the grand scheme of things.

I don't doubt we could potentially unearth a gem from out of contract lower league players, we've been linked with a couple, it's just whether it's worth the time, effort and cost to actually scout in that area. If it works, great, but it's a pretty big risk for obvious reasons and if it fails then it doesn't cover us in glory.

It is all of those things, you're right but surely that is worth trying now? Whatever the current recruitment set up is at the club it is clearly not very successful. If we want to pick up loan players through our exisiting connections then thats fine but you also have to have a small team looking into free transfers of younger players from Leagues 1&2 imo. If we were to only pick up one out of contract player this summer who goes on to make the club a decent profit when we sell them that is a plus.

Upon hearing a couple of recent interviews with Brian McDermott he seems very keen to return to the club if asked. Why not ask him to become the scouting manager, even on a part time arrangement? We could do a lot worse and it is worth a try imo.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Theoretically, yes it would be sound logic, but whilst we only have a couple of staff on the recruitment side and not an actually scouting team, according to Ince anyway, then we'd probably end up using the resource elsewhere.

I think it's worth trying if there are a couple of players that are obviously good enough for this level. Josh Laurent was touted around a few clubs, although I'm not sure how many are out of contract this season that are good enough. Again, if we looked hard enough, I'm sure we could find someone, but it's at what cost ultimately i.e. looking for other targets elsewhere.

[South Coast Royal]

On parachute payments I agree that the system needs reviewing.

I did though hear a reasonable case put forward in favour in that it means that newly promoted clubs can take a financial gamble (in the knowledge that if it fails there is a parachute) and therefore improve their squads thereby (in theory) making the Premier League as a whole better.
Unfortunately teams like Norwich fly in the face of all that, don't spend and get relegated then get promoted..............................

As for Bournemouth, how fortunate have they been with no VAR in the Championship?
The other day they were 3-0 down at Swansea, Kieffer Moore comes on, elbows the Swansea centre-back, ref does nothing, centre-back goes off, Swansea lack a replacement, Moore scores 2 and Bournemouth get an important point.

Last night in the first half at 0-0 Bournemouth's keeper brings down Surridge, a certain penalty, keeper possibly to be sent off for denying a goal scoring opportunity but there you have it the lino has flagged for offside.
Replay shows that he was onside.

Credit though to Bournemouth in showing rare imagination with a free kick when so often these days there is a direct shot at goal.

Fortunately I had a sizeable Judas type bet on Bournemouth for promotion early on at 3/1 so at least I have gained to put up with the celebrations around this way.
As I saw it, with their squad and the financial (Russian but somehow English owner) clout they would be able to spend again in January which they did.
It nearly backfired because Moore got crocked after playing for just 4 minutes but paid for the investment by scoring in these last 2 games.

Two other plusses for me-no pressure of having 2 games against them next season and the joy of seeing them getting relegated again and getting thumped most weeks .

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Norwich spent a fair bit of money did they not last summer? Was it about £50m on multiple transfers? Depending on what source you use.

They all spend a fair bit of money when they are promoted. Not as much as the big boys in the PL of course but a lot more than most Championship sides.

I understand the point in concept though.

[windermereROYAL]

My main gripe is that they get the parachute money every time they go down, surely anybody with half a brain can see what`s wrong with that.

[Hendo]

My main gripe is that they get the parachute money every time they go down, surely anybody with half a brain can see what`s wrong with that.

[Stranded]

Norwich spent a fair bit of money did they not last summer? Was it about £50m on multiple transfers? Depending on what source you use.

They all spend a fair bit of money when they are promoted. Not as much as the big boys in the PL of course but a lot more than most Championship sides.

I understand the point in concept though.

They did spend a lot for them, mainly financed by the sale of Buenida to Villa for around 40m. Nothing wrong with being sensible with recruitment and if it means you alternate a promotion/relegation year not the end of the world. Problem comes if the cycle ends after a relegation.

Read somewhere that due to Covid, Norwich fans have had the joy of witnessing 2 relegations but missing the promotion in the middle.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Norwich spent a fair bit of money did they not last summer? Was it about £50m on multiple transfers? Depending on what source you use.

They all spend a fair bit of money when they are promoted. Not as much as the big boys in the PL of course but a lot more than most Championship sides.

I understand the point in concept though.

They did spend a lot for them, mainly financed by the sale of Buenida to Villa for around 40m. Nothing wrong with being sensible with recruitment and if it means you alternate a promotion/relegation year not the end of the world. Problem comes if the cycle ends after a relegation.

Read somewhere that due to Covid, Norwich fans have had the joy of witnessing 2 relegations but missing the promotion in the middle.

I didn't factor the Buendia sale in, so net spend probably looks about similar to usual.

Stuart Webber at Norwich did an interview a couple of years ago about being a "yo-yo" club. He said that it was actually positive from the clubs point of view as a way to bring in good revenue that can be used for years, whilst being able to improve the squad each season as well, even if that means relegation each time they are promoted. Obviously a short-term strategy though.

[Mr Angry]

The original concept behind the parachute payments was to enable a relegated club to avoid the possibility of relegation making them go into admininistration due to lost revenues; it was never meant to enable relegated teams to hold onto £100K a week international strikers and makes a total mockery of any sporting integrity in the Championship.