Summer Rebuild

[Royal Rother]

I mentioned Tshibola and Samuel in my post.

[Pepe the Horseman]

Soz, didn't read your previous post. Your post seemed to imply that a few of them had gone out and done well.

[Ian Royal]

Because the managers future and reputation, and that of the club, are dependant on results and those other clubs kids are quite probably better than ours.

I'd love to see those players you mention prove themselves at this level, but blooding them all together is a big gamble.

Less than blooding lots of youngsters that we don't know, are likely to care about us less and haven't played together. Unless they're a lot better.

Well the last bit is kind of key though isn't it?

That, and if we take someone like Chalobah, Ake or Baker, we're likely to be getting a player that has already performed at the kind of level we're looking to play them at, or at least more so than the likes of Tishbola.

I'm all for using players like Kuhl, Stacey, Fosu and the rest but I just don't think you can expect the manager, who will pay with his job if things don't go well, to turn down the chance to use players that are presumably better than ours just for the long term interest and value.

I'd like think that part of the job description and therefore expectations is to bring through Academy talent to the first team.

I also don't think we'll easily find cheap youth to bring in that are much better than what we have. Not that's worth it considering long term as well. The exceptions would be a striker and left back where we're desperately short and have limited options ready.

[Elm Park Kid]

The issue is that we all need to recalibrate our idea of what a 'high wage' is. Once the parachute payments stop we're just a club with an average gate of 16 odd thousand (many of which are concession season tickets) and relatively few additional income streams. If we're only paying Gunter and McCleary £15k a week it's still probably too much.

I doubt it.. Didn't we give kebe a 16k a week contract in January before we got promoted? How much was Roberts on at the same time? And jobi..

Nobody has a clue what any of our players are on, at best we have a rough idea for one or two.

Roberts' contract was being paid by Zingarevich before FFP was a concern. We can't do that any more.

Exactly. I didn't realize myself until a couple of seasons ago just how dire the financial situation is for a club that isn't being bankrolled in someway or doesn't have a large gate. Many of the teams around the bottom half of the championship have wage bills of around £15m a year - if we assume that approx £2m is needed for non-player wages then a squad of 23 needs an average wage of no more than £10k each.

[Elm Park Kid]

I'd like think that part of the job description and therefore expectations is to bring through Academy talent to the first team.

I also don't think we'll easily find cheap youth to bring in that are much better than what we have. Not that's worth it considering long term as well. The exceptions would be a striker and left back where we're desperately short and have limited options ready.

What you've got to understand though is even if Clarke does convert an academy talent into an established Championship player, the moment that happens the kids agent will want him to be paid the 'going rate' and you're back to square one. A decent player will always end up costing the club the same in wages regardless of where he comes from.

[Royalwaster]

I'd like think that part of the job description and therefore expectations is to bring through Academy talent to the first team.

I also don't think we'll easily find cheap youth to bring in that are much better than what we have. Not that's worth it considering long term as well. The exceptions would be a striker and left back where we're desperately short and have limited options ready.

What you've got to understand though is even if Clarke does convert an academy talent into an established Championship player, the moment that happens the kids agent will want him to be paid the 'going rate' and you're back to square one. A decent player will always end up costing the club the same in wages regardless of where he comes from.

Yep you just save on the transfer fee and initial agents' fees.

[Norfolk Royal]

Not to mention the transfer fee we get when we sell him after half a season.

[NewCorkSeth]

Exactly. I didn't realize myself until a couple of seasons ago just how dire the financial situation is for a club that isn't being bankrolled in someway or doesn't have a large gate. Many of the teams around the bottom half of the championship have wage bills of around £15m a year - if we assume that approx £2m is needed for non-player wages then a squad of 23 needs an average wage of no more than £10k each.

sorry but under the terms of your premise we can have two players on 15k as long as just two other players in the 23 man squad are on 5k a week. To which I say Cooper and Aaron kuhl both Probably on a lot less than that! Even hector is likely to be on less than that I agree we need to ofload some higher earners but say feds, jem and Pearce leave. That's probably 50k a week wages extra we have. Not to mention bonuses.. I think we can afford to pay two players we want to keep around 15k...

[SCIAG]

That, and if we take someone like Chalobah, Ake or Baker, we're likely to be getting a player that has already performed at the kind of level we're looking to play them at, or at least more so than the likes of Tishbola.

Not sure Baker or Aké (or Solanke or Brown or Loftus-Cheek...) are any more proven at this level than Tshibola or Samuel or Fosu or whoever. They're probably better players based on their achievements at youth level (particularly Baker and Solanke), but they're no more "proven".

The thought of watching some of these attacking players excites me, but I think I'd rather see a slightly less exciting performance from someone we can use again next season.

[Hoop Blah]

But our kids seem to have shone in the lower leagues whilst out on loan so I see no reason to think that other club's lower league players would be "quite probably better than ours". (Edit: I suspect there's a cross purpose discussion evolving here - I am clearly talking about our kids v lower league players generally - I think you've shifted to the likes of Chelsea's kids coming in on loan being better than our kids who have done well in the lower leagues...)

Yeah fair point, slight cross purposes there.

I can't see us paying out money on a lower league starlet who's got a similar level of experience as ours, and we won't be able to afford the true gems of the same age who've looked like they could really step up, players like Deli Ali (if he hadn't already gone to Spurs), Jed Wallace or Diego Poyet (West Ham got him).

What we might do is pluck someone out with a bit more of a track record to fall back on, so a 25 or 26 year old who's impressed enough to step up but not young enough or a hot enough property to attract big fees from big clubs. I'm thinking players like the two centre halfs that made the League One PFA team, Aden Flint and Tom Clarke.

If the manager is given very little money, which will surely be the case, then his best course of action is to focus on getting the best out of what we have, not looking outside.

Yes, if Chelsea want to get Loftus-Cheek or Solanki some good experience in a good environment under a coach Mourinho trusts then I'm sure we would be very pleased to help them out but I just don't think ageing players on £15k - £20k pw or other club's lower league players should be of any real interest to us.

Well hopefully you're right and he'll feel comfortable to use our young lads if his hands are tied a little bit.

I wouldn't want him to have to do it if they aren't good enough just for the sake of using our academy products over other options.

[Ian Royal]

I'd like think that part of the job description and therefore expectations is to bring through Academy talent to the first team.

I also don't think we'll easily find cheap youth to bring in that are much better than what we have. Not that's worth it considering long term as well. The exceptions would be a striker and left back where we're desperately short and have limited options ready.

What you've got to understand though is even if Clarke does convert an academy talent into an established Championship player, the moment that happens the kids agent will want him to be paid the 'going rate' and you're back to square one. A decent player will always end up costing the club the same in wages regardless of where he comes from.

But the going rate in the Championship is much lower than we're currently paying. That's why our wage bill is probably 50% - 100% higher than most Chump wage bills.

And it's still a saving whilst they're proving themselves compared to bringing in someone from outside who'll probably have a signing / transfer / loan fee and higher wages from the off.

[Royal Rother]

But EPK, it won't be "the moment they make it" - it'll be at the club's discretion, probably at the end of the season. And what if they DON'T make it?

At the moment the likes of Stacey, Fosu & Co will be on something like £1k pw and £3k per game.

If they get established it will cost potentially £7k pw (2 games pw which is unlikley for teenagers) - and then at the end of the season they'll get a new 3 year contract on perhaps guaranteed £5k pw + appearances.

If they don't make it they'll continue to cost £1kpw until released.

Compare that with the cost / risk of bringing in someone who is already established from another club...

(Which is all just agreeing with IR really.)

[Pepe the Horseman]

Steven Reid has retired, so that puts that one to bed.

[Sutekh]

Steven Reid has retired, so that puts that one to bed.

Some wits on here would say that hasn't stopped HRK getting games.

[Hoop Blah]

I can't see us paying out money on a lower league starlet who's got a similar level of experience as ours, and we won't be able to afford the true gems of the same age who've looked like they could really step up, players like Deli Ali (if he hadn't already gone to Spurs), Jed Wallace or Diego Poyet (West Ham got him).

I've just read that Jed Wallace has a buyout clause in his contract that they reckon is around £275k. I've only seen his highlights and goals from League 2, so it's difficult to judge of course, but he certainly has an eye for goal and that's one thing we're obviously lacking. Scoring 17 goals from midfield in a side like Portsmouth is a pretty good record.

At that kind of price he should certainly be on Clarke's shopping list IMO.

[linkenholtroyal]

The team I would like to see starting next season I have added the signings I believe they are all possible maybe over than knockhaert

.................................................................. Hamer............................................................
Gunter...................................Pearce.............................Hector...............................Obita
Williams
Mccleary............................... Norwood........................ J. Wallace.......................... A Knockhaert

..................................................................Le Fondre..........................................................

Subs
O'Donnell
Mills
Keirnan
E Omuzusi
J.E.T
Karacan
Cox


I would pay to go and see this team and I believe that all of these signings are within our grasp obviously I know there will be Chelsea Youngsters and Knockhaert would probably be a loan to, but it would be a more exciting attacking passing line up.

[Kuhl_Runnings]

The team I would like to see starting next season I have added the signings I believe they are all possible maybe over than knockhaert

.................................................................. Hamer............................................................
Gunter...................................Pearce.............................Hector...............................Obita
Williams
Mccleary............................... Norwood........................ J. Wallace.......................... A Knockhaert

..................................................................Le Fondre..........................................................

Subs
O'Donnell
Mills
Keirnan
E Omuzusi
J.E.T
Karacan
Cox


I would pay to go and see this team and I believe that all of these signings are within our grasp obviously I know there will be Chelsea Youngsters and Knockhaert would probably be a loan to, but it would be a more exciting attacking passing line up.

I'm sure we'd sign two keepers and sell three... and Le Fondre up front alone is a nono, and we can't bloody sign Knockaert, Omuzusi, Mills AND Wallace as well as them.

[linkenholtroyal]

The team I would like to see starting next season I have added the signings I believe they are all possible maybe over than knockhaert

.................................................................. Hamer............................................................
Gunter...................................Pearce.............................Hector...............................Obita
Williams
Mccleary............................... Norwood........................ J. Wallace.......................... A Knockhaert

..................................................................Le Fondre..........................................................

Subs
O'Donnell
Mills
Keirnan
E Omuzusi
J.E.T
Karacan
Cox


I would pay to go and see this team and I believe that all of these signings are within our grasp obviously I know there will be Chelsea Youngsters and Knockhaert would probably be a loan to, but it would be a more exciting attacking passing line up.

I'm sure we'd sign two keepers and sell three... and Le Fondre up front alone is a nono, and we can't bloody sign Knockaert, Omuzusi, Mills AND Wallace as well as them.

I don't think we will have a proven keeper as federici and Anderson will not sign. A good affordable option is Hamer. Hamer is a proven championship keeper and a fairly cheep option probably and other than that I think the others would cost no more than 5 million and they would have acceptable wage levels if knockhaert was on loan. also this was just an idea of a reading I would like to see rather than the slow lumpy one of this season

[maffff]

Hamer, Gunter, Pearce, Hector, Obita, Williams, Mccleary, Norwood, Wallace, Knockhaert, Le Fondre

Subs: O'Donnell, Mills, Keirnan, E Omuzusi, J.E.T, Karacan, Cox

This is horrific. Absolutely horrific,

I expect a youth keeper to be the bench options alongside Feds OR a new signing such as O'Donnell.
Mills I doubt would come to be a bench option. I'd hope you mean Jason Pearce over Alex Pearce. Personally I don't want either. Sadly I think Pearce will probably still be with us next year. Keirnan intrigues me, but would he be a huge improvement on having Cooper / Sweenz / a crocked Ferdinand as our 3rd/4th choice?
Wallace I'd like, but we've been linked with him a few seasons and we've spurned those opportunities, as have other teams. Why? (although same should be said about Ritchie at AFCB I guess..)
Knockaert - never going to happen. Would absolutely love him here.
ALF - never look back. Not on his own. More chance of us getting Appiah back to hold the line.
Omuzusi - meh.
J.E.T. can oxf*rd off. We've already got one Robson-Kanu.
You think Karacan will stay? I'm expecting him to leave.
Cox will only be here if we can't push him out the door.

[linkenholtroyal]

Hamer, Gunter, Pearce, Hector, Obita, Williams, Mccleary, Norwood, Wallace, Knockhaert, Le Fondre

Subs: O'Donnell, Mills, Keirnan, E Omuzusi, J.E.T, Karacan, Cox

This is horrific. Absolutely horrific,

I expect a youth keeper to be the bench options alongside Feds OR a new signing such as O'Donnell.
Mills I doubt would come to be a bench option. I'd hope you mean Jason Pearce over Alex Pearce. Personally I don't want either. Sadly I think Pearce will probably still be with us next year. Keirnan intrigues me, but would he be a huge improvement on having Cooper / Sweenz / a crocked Ferdinand as our 3rd/4th choice?
Wallace I'd like, but we've been linked with him a few seasons and we've spurned those opportunities, as have other teams. Why? (although same should be said about Ritchie at AFCB I guess..)
Knockaert - never going to happen. Would absolutely love him here.
ALF - never look back. Not on his own. More chance of us getting Appiah back to hold the line.
Omuzusi - meh.
J.E.T. can oxf*rd off. We've already got one Robson-Kanu.
You think Karacan will stay? I'm expecting him to leave.
Cox will only be here if we can't push him out the door.

so its just the subs you have a problem with really and I don't believe Federici will be here......