Weekend Football

[genome]

Just me mate, the others are laughing at Liverpool.

[NathStPaul]

Just me mate, the others are laughing at Liverpool.

You're not allowed to enjoy football mate. Leon said so.

[Franchise FC]

Without VAR the only decision that would have, maybe, changed was the red card for Jones. (Personally, having watched it in real time again, I would go with red simply because he was evidently out if control and clearly endangering an opponent)
Two yellows for Jota doesn’t go to VAR anyway and the Diaz goal was flagged in real time.

[Sutekh]

Game ruined by VAR. Utterly nonsensical decision. Honestly can't see why the hell we have VAR if its going to be operated by planks. I would go as far to say that games affected by nonsensical and plainly incorrect decisions should be replayed.

It's also still a major irritation that yellow card decisions cannot be appealed in general and certainly in the event of a sending off.

[South Coast Royal]

Game ruined by VAR. Utterly nonsensical decision. Honestly can't see why the hell we have VAR if its going to be operated by planks. I would go as far to say that games affected by nonsensical and plainly incorrect decisions should be replayed.

It's also still a major irritation that yellow card decisions cannot be appealed in general and certainly in the event of a sending off.

Especially the first yellow for Jota where the Spurs left-back clearly tripped himself up (a la Scholes and Ince of old).
We know that referees in this country are abysmal but Hooper and Attwell in particular manage to create havoc when they are refereeing rather than bringing calm to the occasion.

[genome]

Can’t help but feel the mass outrage is a little ridiculous. I can name 4 occasions in recent years, including one in a Champions League final no less, where Spurs have been shafted by the officials against Liverpool.

No reaction then from the media and fans like there has been last night and this morning. Some Liverpool fans calling for the game to be replayed. Have a bloody day off…

[Franchise FC]

Game ruined by VAR. Utterly nonsensical decision. Honestly can't see why the hell we have VAR if its going to be operated by planks. I would go as far to say that games affected by nonsensical and plainly incorrect decisions should be replayed.

It's also still a major irritation that yellow card decisions cannot be appealed in general and certainly in the event of a sending off.

Just to be absolutely clear, the only decision that would have changed without VAR was the red card for Jones

[Snowflake Royal]

It now seems as though goal-line technology is the only aspect that is always correct.
Yes, the Curtis Jones red is a matter of opinion even if that clown of a referee Simon Hooper decided to overturn his yellow decision based mainly on a still of the incident and only spent about 30 seconds looking.

The offside was not down to the clown but human error at VAR HQ and an apology has been given.
So now human error has become a feature of non-human technology.

Having wrongly (consensus of the TV pundits including Neville who is no great fan of Liverpool) dished out a red card card Hooper then yellow cards Jota when the Spurs player tripped over his own feet.

Hooper was demoted a few weeks ago after a dreadful refereeing performance so what is he doing so soon afterwards officiating at the top game of the weekend?

Brighton were affected most last season by bad VAR decisions and IIRC received 3 apology calls from Howard Webb.
Liverpool will now get the call but no points either .

VAR was brought in so that decisions like the lino's incorrect offside flagging would be rectified-today it didn't work because human error occurred both on and off the pitch whereas previously it only happened ON the pitch so is that really progress?

The expectation that VAR involves no scope for human error when it is humans interpreting video evidence is mindbogglingly stupid.

VAR isn't there to eradicate human error, its there to dramatically reduce it. And you only have to look at the absolute howling shitshow of decisions you get on the absolute regular in the lower leagues to see it has largely been successful and an improvement.

If not brilliantly implemented nor flawless.

[Sutekh]

It now seems as though goal-line technology is the only aspect that is always correct.
Yes, the Curtis Jones red is a matter of opinion even if that clown of a referee Simon Hooper decided to overturn his yellow decision based mainly on a still of the incident and only spent about 30 seconds looking.

The offside was not down to the clown but human error at VAR HQ and an apology has been given.
So now human error has become a feature of non-human technology.

Having wrongly (consensus of the TV pundits including Neville who is no great fan of Liverpool) dished out a red card card Hooper then yellow cards Jota when the Spurs player tripped over his own feet.

Hooper was demoted a few weeks ago after a dreadful refereeing performance so what is he doing so soon afterwards officiating at the top game of the weekend?

Brighton were affected most last season by bad VAR decisions and IIRC received 3 apology calls from Howard Webb.
Liverpool will now get the call but no points either .

VAR was brought in so that decisions like the lino's incorrect offside flagging would be rectified-today it didn't work because human error occurred both on and off the pitch whereas previously it only happened ON the pitch so is that really progress?

The expectation that VAR involves no scope for human error when it is humans interpreting video evidence is mindbogglingly stupid.

VAR isn't there to eradicate human error, its there to dramatically reduce it. And you only have to look at the absolute howling shitshow of decisions you get on the absolute regular in the lower leagues to see it has largely been successful and an improvement.

If not brilliantly implemented nor flawless.

Human error is one thing but that was sheer incompetence of the highest order and all VAR does on these occasions is highlight the utter ineptitude of those appointed. This is not the first time either. If you're going to use the technology then appoint and specifically train people to be expert in the use of the tool. It would also help considerably build the relevant refereeing and VAR experience if the system was rolled out across all four divisions esp. to help the rookie officials you get turning up in divisions 3 and 4 as well as reduce the inequality between the PL and FL.

I would call for games with incidents like this to be replayed whether they're league games or a world cup final. I would also ask for incidents to be viewed in real time and not slowed down as all that does is make everything look a lot worse than it may actually have been.

Of course if there was no technology and officials were allowed to referee games and make decisions based on common sense and in the spirit and context of each game we'd all be better off, yes the mistakes would still be made but we'd all be more accepting of them than we would be with a load of people sat in a box somewhere with a shedload of slow motion replays from all angles and then still getting it wrong!

[Sanguine]

But Ian, there are levels of 'human error'. In this case, it is said that Darren England didn't realise that the goal had been disallowed on the field. This is a basic level of check through which England should have run (fine, he made a mistake) - but then the assistant VAR should have completed the same check, as well as, as I understand it, the third VAR official present.

One of the weakest parts of VAR is the demand that it produce a 'quick' result. No. It should deliver the right one.

More pertinently, I don't know the reasons for the PL refusal of the auto-offside technology, but this might give them pause for thought - the PL didn't even bother discussing it at their meeting with clubs in June, despite the technology being good enough for the Champions League, Europa League, Club World Cup, Serie A, and with Bundesliga and La Liga formally adopting it from next year.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

One of the weakest parts of VAR is the demand that it produce a 'quick' result. No. It should deliver the right one.

Funnily enough, someone I was speaking to over the weekend mentioned how much better Rugby's system is compared to football. Watching Scotland, there was a decision being reviewed after a bad tackle by the Romanian player and the decision took the best part of 2 minutes to resolve, if that was in football then the crowd would have been up and on there back within seconds.

I think the way you do resolve that is by stopping the clock like they do in Rugby (potentially looking at that 60 minute game with stoppages when the ball is out of play for example) and then by saying to fans/pundits, stop complaining about the speed of decisions and let them get it right. Too many times football fans say that the referees "don't know what they are doing" when decisions aren't made with what they consider a "normal" amount of time.

[genome]

But Ian, there are levels of 'human error'. In this case, it is said that Darren England didn't realise that the goal had been disallowed on the field. This is a basic level of check through which England should have run (fine, he made a mistake) - but then the assistant VAR should have completed the same check, as well as, as I understand it, the third VAR official present.

One of the weakest parts of VAR is the demand that it produce a 'quick' result. No. It should deliver the right one.

More pertinently, I don't know the reasons for the PL refusal of the auto-offside technology, but this might give them pause for thought - the PL didn't even bother discussing it at their meeting with clubs in June, despite the technology being good enough for the Champions League, Europa League, Club World Cup, Serie A, and with Bundesliga and La Liga formally adopting it from next year.

Is it too much to ask them that they make the right decision but it doesn't take minutes to get there?

If the automated system works well they should absolutely bring it in.

[Royal Rother]

It now seems as though goal-line technology is the only aspect that is always correct.
Yes, the Curtis Jones red is a matter of opinion even if that clown of a referee Simon Hooper decided to overturn his yellow decision based mainly on a still of the incident and only spent about 30 seconds looking.

The offside was not down to the clown but human error at VAR HQ and an apology has been given.
So now human error has become a feature of non-human technology.

Having wrongly (consensus of the TV pundits including Neville who is no great fan of Liverpool) dished out a red card card Hooper then yellow cards Jota when the Spurs player tripped over his own feet.

Hooper was demoted a few weeks ago after a dreadful refereeing performance so what is he doing so soon afterwards officiating at the top game of the weekend?

Brighton were affected most last season by bad VAR decisions and IIRC received 3 apology calls from Howard Webb.
Liverpool will now get the call but no points either .

VAR was brought in so that decisions like the lino's incorrect offside flagging would be rectified-today it didn't work because human error occurred both on and off the pitch whereas previously it only happened ON the pitch so is that really progress?

The expectation that VAR involves no scope for human error when it is humans interpreting video evidence is mindbogglingly stupid.

VAR isn't there to eradicate human error, its there to dramatically reduce it. And you only have to look at the absolute howling shitshow of decisions you get on the absolute regular in the lower leagues to see it has largely been successful and an improvement.

If not brilliantly implemented nor flawless.

100%

[genome]

Agreed on following rugby - mike up the refs and stop the game clock during stoppages.

[Sanguine]

One of the weakest parts of VAR is the demand that it produce a 'quick' result. No. It should deliver the right one.

Funnily enough, someone I was speaking to over the weekend mentioned how much better Rugby's system is compared to football. Watching Scotland, there was a decision being reviewed after a bad tackle by the Romanian player and the decision took the best part of 2 minutes to resolve, if that was in football then the crowd would have been up and on there back within seconds.

I think the way you do resolve that is by stopping the clock like they do in Rugby (potentially looking at that 60 minute game with stoppages when the ball is out of play for example) and then by saying to fans/pundits, stop complaining about the speed of decisions and let them get it right. Too many times football fans say that the referees "don't know what they are doing" when decisions aren't made with what they consider a "normal" amount of time.

Another way to resolve the issue of speed (for me, unimportant, but apparently important to the sport) is to take rugby union's lead and allow VAR officials to upgrade yellows to red while the game is in-play. Referee could review on screen during a subsequent break in play.

[Sanguine]

But Ian, there are levels of 'human error'. In this case, it is said that Darren England didn't realise that the goal had been disallowed on the field. This is a basic level of check through which England should have run (fine, he made a mistake) - but then the assistant VAR should have completed the same check, as well as, as I understand it, the third VAR official present.

One of the weakest parts of VAR is the demand that it produce a 'quick' result. No. It should deliver the right one.

More pertinently, I don't know the reasons for the PL refusal of the auto-offside technology, but this might give them pause for thought - the PL didn't even bother discussing it at their meeting with clubs in June, despite the technology being good enough for the Champions League, Europa League, Club World Cup, Serie A, and with Bundesliga and La Liga formally adopting it from next year.

Is it too much to ask them that they make the right decision but it doesn't take minutes to get there?

If the automated system works well they should absolutely bring it in.

I don't know that there have been any recorded errors with semi-automated offside - perhaps not a surprise, the system reads 29 points on each player's body 50 times a second, and reads the ball's position on the pitch 500 times a second.

[Royal Rother]

But Ian, there are levels of 'human error'. In this case, it is said that Darren England didn't realise that the goal had been disallowed on the field. This is a basic level of check through which England should have run (fine, he made a mistake) - but then the assistant VAR should have completed the same check, as well as, as I understand it, the third VAR official present.

I don't think anyone could possibly disagree that it was a shit show, but that misses the broader, and frankly, far more important, point, which is, if it needs spelling out to anybody again, that there are far fewer match-changing errors now as a result of having VAR.

[Sanguine]

But Ian, there are levels of 'human error'. In this case, it is said that Darren England didn't realise that the goal had been disallowed on the field. This is a basic level of check through which England should have run (fine, he made a mistake) - but then the assistant VAR should have completed the same check, as well as, as I understand it, the third VAR official present.

I don't think anyone could possibly disagree that it was a shit show, but that misses the broader, and frankly, far more important, point, which is, if it needs spelling out to anybody again, that there are far fewer match-changing errors now as a result of having VAR.

No, that's misdirection. I've been one of VAR's biggest advocates, and I absolutely accept that VAR has got us from (say) 90% of offside decisions correct to 99%. But wanting errors like those at Spurs to be completely eliminated doesn't undermine that. This wasn't about 'a close one' - and we wouldn't be having this debate if the most contentious (and wrong) decision in the match had been the Jones red card. Fans accept a level of subjectivity, even when apparent mistakes or inconsistences are made. But this wasn't offside, in fact as it goes it wasn't even close - and with technology in place we shouldn't arrive at such an error though, basically, five match officials.

[Winston Biscuit]

As much as I reeeeeealy hate VAR, my understanding of this shambles was just that a bloke wasn't paying attention to the match properly.

[Franchise FC]

But Ian, there are levels of 'human error'. In this case, it is said that Darren England didn't realise that the goal had been disallowed on the field. This is a basic level of check through which England should have run (fine, he made a mistake) - but then the assistant VAR should have completed the same check, as well as, as I understand it, the third VAR official present.

I don't think anyone could possibly disagree that it was a shit show, but that misses the broader, and frankly, far more important, point, which is, if it needs spelling out to anybody again, that there are far fewer match-changing errors now as a result of having VAR.

No, that's misdirection. I've been one of VAR's biggest advocates, and I absolutely accept that VAR has got us from (say) 90% of offside decisions correct to 99%. But wanting errors like those at Spurs to be completely eliminated doesn't undermine that. This wasn't about 'a close one' - and we wouldn't be having this debate if the most contentious (and wrong) decision in the match had been the Jones red card. Fans accept a level of subjectivity, even when apparent mistakes or inconsistences are made. But this wasn't offside, in fact as it goes it wasn't even close - and with technology in place we shouldn't arrive at such an error though, basically, five match officials.

Really can’t quite believe I’m doing this but there’s very little blame on the physically present officials. Yes, the lino got it wrong, it happens. From there on in neither him nor Hooper has a screen or replay so are completely blameless for the clusterf*ck that followed.

I promise I won’t defend a referee or linesman again this season