Goalkeepers

[Clyde1998]

I've had a look at the basic goalkeeping stats.

Despite everyone criticising Button in goal, we've conceded basically as much with him in goal as we have with Pereira in goal.

Button - Pld 37 - GA 55 - 59.7 mins per GA
Pereira - Pld 9 - GA 14 - 54.6 mins per GA

Even without that stoppage time mistake against Blackpool, it would been slightly in Button's favour (Pereira would've been on 58.8 mins per GA without it).

I maintain Pereira is a much better shot stopper, but Button is better at distribution and organising the defence - things that prevent pressure on the goal in the first place.

I feel Button has been unfairly criticised because of his early season errors. His minutes per goal conceded dropped to 70.0 after Shrewsbury until he got ill before of Derby (40% better than his record until Shrewsbury).

Any thoughts people have on this?

[Brogue]

Well stocked in the keeper department. Button is 35 and I am reliably informed he is our highest earner. As you stats prove there is very little difference between him and Pereira. So from a purely economic point of view button can go. Imo.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Well stocked in the keeper department. Button is 35 and I am reliably informed he is our highest earner. As you stats prove there is very little difference between him and Pereira. So from a purely economic point of view button can go. Imo.

Good luck shifting him. At best a loan where we pay two thirds of his wages.

[Snowball]

I've had a look at the basic goalkeeping stats.

Despite everyone criticising Button in goal, we've conceded basically as much with him in goal as we have with Pereira in goal.

Button - Pld 37 - GA 55 - 59.7 mins per GA
Pereira - Pld 9 - GA 14 - 54.6 mins per GA

Even without that stoppage time mistake against Blackpool, it would been slightly in Button's favour (Pereira would've been on 58.8 mins per GA without it).

I maintain Pereira is a much better shot stopper, but Button is better at distribution and organising the defence - things that prevent pressure on the goal in the first place.

I feel Button has been unfairly criticised because of his early season errors. His minutes per goal conceded dropped to 70.0 after Shrewsbury until he got ill before of Derby (40% better than his record until Shrewsbury).

Any thoughts people have on this?

Not a lot of games for Pereira and in one single game he shipped 5 goals

Without that one TEAM hammering he'd be P8 GA 9 GA 80+

[Brogue]

Well stocked in the keeper department. Button is 35 and I am reliably informed he is our highest earner. As you stats prove there is very little difference between him and Pereira. So from a purely economic point of view button can go. Imo.

Good luck shifting him. At best a loan where we pay two thirds of his wages.

Maybe. But we are not talking Liam Moore here on 35k pw. Although he might be our top wage earner it is still modest for the league we are in. There might be someone willing to match his wages.

[Clyde1998]

I've had a look at the basic goalkeeping stats.

Despite everyone criticising Button in goal, we've conceded basically as much with him in goal as we have with Pereira in goal.

Button - Pld 37 - GA 55 - 59.7 mins per GA
Pereira - Pld 9 - GA 14 - 54.6 mins per GA

Even without that stoppage time mistake against Blackpool, it would been slightly in Button's favour (Pereira would've been on 58.8 mins per GA without it).

I maintain Pereira is a much better shot stopper, but Button is better at distribution and organising the defence - things that prevent pressure on the goal in the first place.

I feel Button has been unfairly criticised because of his early season errors. His minutes per goal conceded dropped to 70.0 after Shrewsbury until he got ill before of Derby (40% better than his record until Shrewsbury).

Any thoughts people have on this?

Not a lot of games for Pereira and in one single game he shipped 5 goals

Without that one TEAM hammering he'd be P8 GA 9 GA 80+

True, but you could remove a proportional percentage of games (to removing one game from Pereira) where Button conceded a load of goals and get not far from 80+.

I would agree we haven't had enough games with Pereira in goal to accurately judge the long term impact of him being in goal compared to Button - not directly comparable, but adding in cup matches for both still keeps them roughly similar (Button still slightly better). The defence is more stable than it was earlier in the season, which wouldn't've helped Button's numbers.

Overall, I'm not sure there's too much between them - both have different strengths and weaknesses.

[Brogue]

I've had a look at the basic goalkeeping stats.

Despite everyone criticising Button in goal, we've conceded basically as much with him in goal as we have with Pereira in goal.

Button - Pld 37 - GA 55 - 59.7 mins per GA
Pereira - Pld 9 - GA 14 - 54.6 mins per GA

Even without that stoppage time mistake against Blackpool, it would been slightly in Button's favour (Pereira would've been on 58.8 mins per GA without it).

I maintain Pereira is a much better shot stopper, but Button is better at distribution and organising the defence - things that prevent pressure on the goal in the first place.

I feel Button has been unfairly criticised because of his early season errors. His minutes per goal conceded dropped to 70.0 after Shrewsbury until he got ill before of Derby (40% better than his record until Shrewsbury).

Any thoughts people have on this?

Not a lot of games for Pereira and in one single game he shipped 5 goals

Without that one TEAM hammering he'd be P8 GA 9 GA 80+

True, but you could remove a proportional percentage of games (to removing one game from Pereira) where Button conceded a load of goals and get not far from 80+.

I would agree we haven't had enough games with Pereira in goal to accurately judge the long term impact of him being in goal compared to Button - not directly comparable, but adding in cup matches for both still keeps them roughly similar (Button still slightly better). The defence is more stable than it was earlier in the season, which wouldn't've helped Button's numbers.

Overall, I'm not sure there's too much between them - both have different strengths and weaknesses.

so what's your point Clyde? I'm not sure what you are getting at. is this your round about way of saying button should be number one despite your stats saying there is basically nothing in it?

[Clyde1998]

Not a lot of games for Pereira and in one single game he shipped 5 goals

Without that one TEAM hammering he'd be P8 GA 9 GA 80+

True, but you could remove a proportional percentage of games (to removing one game from Pereira) where Button conceded a load of goals and get not far from 80+.

I would agree we haven't had enough games with Pereira in goal to accurately judge the long term impact of him being in goal compared to Button - not directly comparable, but adding in cup matches for both still keeps them roughly similar (Button still slightly better). The defence is more stable than it was earlier in the season, which wouldn't've helped Button's numbers.

Overall, I'm not sure there's too much between them - both have different strengths and weaknesses.

so what's your point Clyde? I'm not sure what you are getting at. is this your round about way of saying button should be number one despite your stats saying there is basically nothing in it?

My point is a case of who would people prefer plays. I'm in a mixed view as to who should be number one, basically coming down to what we should be prioritising in a goalkeeper, but certainly don't think Pereira is significantly better than Button (as I've heard/seen a lot recently).

Do people actually think Button is a bad goalkeeper or has it simply because a meme to say it?

[Snowflake Royal]

I've had a look at the basic goalkeeping stats.

Despite everyone criticising Button in goal, we've conceded basically as much with him in goal as we have with Pereira in goal.

Button - Pld 37 - GA 55 - 59.7 mins per GA
Pereira - Pld 9 - GA 14 - 54.6 mins per GA

Even without that stoppage time mistake against Blackpool, it would been slightly in Button's favour (Pereira would've been on 58.8 mins per GA without it).

I maintain Pereira is a much better shot stopper, but Button is better at distribution and organising the defence - things that prevent pressure on the goal in the first place.

I feel Button has been unfairly criticised because of his early season errors. His minutes per goal conceded dropped to 70.0 after Shrewsbury until he got ill before of Derby (40% better than his record until Shrewsbury).

Any thoughts people have on this?

Don't rate Button's distribution at all. It felt like half his kicks went nowhere near our players and a lot just straight through to the opposition keeper.

Never really understood the harsh criticism of Button towards the end. He was just a bit meh.

Pereira is a far superior shot stopper. Never felt Button would dave anything but routine ones.

Pereira by contrast makes great saves but did have a couple of howlers.

I think Pereira's the man to inspire the defence more personally.

Plus Button is only really getting worse.

[Snowflake Royal]

Well stocked in the keeper department. Button is 35 and I am reliably informed he is our highest earner. As you stats prove there is very little difference between him and Pereira. So from a purely economic point of view button can go. Imo.

Good luck shifting him. At best a loan where we pay two thirds of his wages.

Maybe. But we are not talking Liam Moore here on 35k pw. Although he might be our top wage earner it is still modest for the league we are in. There might be someone willing to match his wages.

It won't be especially modest for L1, we're still going to be one of the higher budgets in the league.

[Brogue]

True, but you could remove a proportional percentage of games (to removing one game from Pereira) where Button conceded a load of goals and get not far from 80+.

I would agree we haven't had enough games with Pereira in goal to accurately judge the long term impact of him being in goal compared to Button - not directly comparable, but adding in cup matches for both still keeps them roughly similar (Button still slightly better). The defence is more stable than it was earlier in the season, which wouldn't've helped Button's numbers.

Overall, I'm not sure there's too much between them - both have different strengths and weaknesses.

so what's your point Clyde? I'm not sure what you are getting at. is this your round about way of saying button should be number one despite your stats saying there is basically nothing in it?

My point is a case of who would people prefer plays. I'm in a mixed view as to who should be number one, basically coming down to what we should be prioritising in a goalkeeper, but certainly don't think Pereira is significantly better than Button (as I've heard/seen a lot recently).

Do people actually think Button is a bad goalkeeper or has it simply because a meme to say it?

OK just seemed you were fighting buttons corner. About the comparisons I don't think anyone has been saying one is significantly better than the other have they? i mean they are both middle-of-the-table league one standard keepers, nothing more nothing less. If we had a bit of wiggle room in the transfer kitty I would definitely be looking to improve that area. But seeing as we don't we should be focusing on other positions first.

[Clyde1998]

so what's your point Clyde? I'm not sure what you are getting at. is this your round about way of saying button should be number one despite your stats saying there is basically nothing in it?

My point is a case of who would people prefer plays. I'm in a mixed view as to who should be number one, basically coming down to what we should be prioritising in a goalkeeper, but certainly don't think Pereira is significantly better than Button (as I've heard/seen a lot recently).

Do people actually think Button is a bad goalkeeper or has it simply because a meme to say it?

OK just seemed you were fighting buttons corner. About the comparisons I don't think anyone has been saying one is significantly better than the other have they? i mean they are both middle-of-the-table league one standard keepers, nothing more nothing less. If we had a bit of wiggle room in the transfer kitty I would definitely be looking to improve that area. But seeing as we don't we should be focusing on other positions first.

I've heard it a lot at away games and seen it a lot on Twitter (the bastion of critical thinking):

https://twitter.com/WebberRoss/status/1 ... 3829444642
https://twitter.com/MarkAbel_28/status/ ... 5367336393
https://twitter.com/danwba_/status/1780986094680441186
https://twitter.com/readingfclens/statu ... 0277880066
https://twitter.com/Liam_Fountain/statu ... 5747203073
https://twitter.com/lewisosman01/status ... 3100014024
https://twitter.com/samtvgamer/status/1 ... 8644450477
https://twitter.com/didcotding1871/stat ... 7758084565
https://twitter.com/kieranlma31/status/ ... 1793439126
https://twitter.com/gavpsmith/status/17 ... 6414112045
https://twitter.com/DavidDoneGood/statu ... 7517483434

Not saying he's been amazing, but certainly seems a sizable section of our support has completely written him off as not being anywhere near Pereira's level. I agree they're both run-of-the-mill League One goalies.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Good luck shifting him. At best a loan where we pay two thirds of his wages.

Maybe. But we are not talking Liam Moore here on 35k pw. Although he might be our top wage earner it is still modest for the league we are in. There might be someone willing to match his wages.

It won't be especially modest for L1, we're still going to be one of the higher budgets in the league.

Any L1 rival who can afford his wages will be eyeing up a better keeper. Let's say he's on top 6 / promise chasing wages, why would somebody pay that for a bottom quartile L1 keeper?

[Clyde1998]

Maybe. But we are not talking Liam Moore here on 35k pw. Although he might be our top wage earner it is still modest for the league we are in. There might be someone willing to match his wages.

It won't be especially modest for L1, we're still going to be one of the higher budgets in the league.

Any L1 rival who can afford his wages will be eyeing up a better keeper. Let's say he's on top 6 / promise chasing wages, why would somebody pay that for a bottom quartile L1 keeper?

He may currently be on those wages, but may be willing to drop his wage demands in exchange for regular football - hypothetically.

[Snowflake Royal]

My point is a case of who would people prefer plays. I'm in a mixed view as to who should be number one, basically coming down to what we should be prioritising in a goalkeeper, but certainly don't think Pereira is significantly better than Button (as I've heard/seen a lot recently).

Do people actually think Button is a bad goalkeeper or has it simply because a meme to say it?

OK just seemed you were fighting buttons corner. About the comparisons I don't think anyone has been saying one is significantly better than the other have they? i mean they are both middle-of-the-table league one standard keepers, nothing more nothing less. If we had a bit of wiggle room in the transfer kitty I would definitely be looking to improve that area. But seeing as we don't we should be focusing on other positions first.

I've heard it a lot at away games and seen it a lot on Twitter (the bastion of critical thinking):

https://twitter.com/WebberRoss/status/1 ... 3829444642
https://twitter.com/MarkAbel_28/status/ ... 5367336393
https://twitter.com/danwba_/status/1780986094680441186
https://twitter.com/readingfclens/statu ... 0277880066
https://twitter.com/Liam_Fountain/statu ... 5747203073
https://twitter.com/lewisosman01/status ... 3100014024
https://twitter.com/samtvgamer/status/1 ... 8644450477
https://twitter.com/didcotding1871/stat ... 7758084565
https://twitter.com/kieranlma31/status/ ... 1793439126
https://twitter.com/gavpsmith/status/17 ... 6414112045
https://twitter.com/DavidDoneGood/statu ... 7517483434

Not saying he's been amazing, but certainly seems a sizable section of our support has completely written him off as not being anywhere near Pereira's level. I agree they're both run-of-the-mill League One goalies.

It's essentially got to come down to whether we can shift anyone.

If we can't move on at least two of Bouzanis, Andresson and Button, loan or otherwise, it doesn’t really seem good business sense to keep Pereira.

On a slightly different topic, if he needs it, I hope the club extend some training and medical assistance to Southwood for his recovery if he's ooc at Cheltenham and they can't. Not at huge expense, but we've got facilities and room I'm sure.

[Clyde1998]

OK just seemed you were fighting buttons corner. About the comparisons I don't think anyone has been saying one is significantly better than the other have they? i mean they are both middle-of-the-table league one standard keepers, nothing more nothing less. If we had a bit of wiggle room in the transfer kitty I would definitely be looking to improve that area. But seeing as we don't we should be focusing on other positions first.

I've heard it a lot at away games and seen it a lot on Twitter (the bastion of critical thinking):

https://twitter.com/WebberRoss/status/1 ... 3829444642
https://twitter.com/MarkAbel_28/status/ ... 5367336393
https://twitter.com/danwba_/status/1780986094680441186
https://twitter.com/readingfclens/statu ... 0277880066
https://twitter.com/Liam_Fountain/statu ... 5747203073
https://twitter.com/lewisosman01/status ... 3100014024
https://twitter.com/samtvgamer/status/1 ... 8644450477
https://twitter.com/didcotding1871/stat ... 7758084565
https://twitter.com/kieranlma31/status/ ... 1793439126
https://twitter.com/gavpsmith/status/17 ... 6414112045
https://twitter.com/DavidDoneGood/statu ... 7517483434

Not saying he's been amazing, but certainly seems a sizable section of our support has completely written him off as not being anywhere near Pereira's level. I agree they're both run-of-the-mill League One goalies.

It's essentially got to come down to whether we can shift anyone.

If we can't move on at least two of Bouzanis, Andresson and Button, loan or otherwise, it doesn’t really seem good business sense to keep Pereira.

On a slightly different topic, if he needs it, I hope the club extend some training and medical assistance to Southwood for his recovery if he's ooc at Cheltenham and they can't. Not at huge expense, but we've got facilities and room I'm sure.

We certainly have too many professional goalkeepers in the squad - I'd expect we could get Andresson out someone, just on loan; Bouzanis may be a bit harder, but could see interest from Australian clubs. We've also got CBC in the squad, who I'd like to see go out on loan next season to get game time.

I was surprised we got rid of Southwood in the first place. I'd hope we'd do something like that for him.

[Stranded]

I've had a look at the basic goalkeeping stats.

Despite everyone criticising Button in goal, we've conceded basically as much with him in goal as we have with Pereira in goal.

Button - Pld 37 - GA 55 - 59.7 mins per GA
Pereira - Pld 9 - GA 14 - 54.6 mins per GA

Even without that stoppage time mistake against Blackpool, it would been slightly in Button's favour (Pereira would've been on 58.8 mins per GA without it).

I maintain Pereira is a much better shot stopper, but Button is better at distribution and organising the defence - things that prevent pressure on the goal in the first place.

I feel Button has been unfairly criticised because of his early season errors. His minutes per goal conceded dropped to 70.0 after Shrewsbury until he got ill before of Derby (40% better than his record until Shrewsbury).

Any thoughts people have on this?

I think that is a very simplistic review of the keepers based on just GA given in any season there will be a percentage of goals that a keeper can do very little with.

Looking at other stats

Button

GA 55
GA per game = 1.51
Shots on Target faced = 141
Shots on Target Per game = 3.8
Save % = 63.8%
CS = 8 (roughly 1 in every 5 games)

Record W 12 D 9 L 15

Pereira

GA 14
Per game = 1.65
Shots on target faced = 44
Per game = 4.88
Save % = 72.7%
Clean Sheets - 3 (1 in every 3 games)

Record W4 D2 L3

The sample for Pereira is small so a direct comparison is probably unfair at this stage but what the stats show:

We allow more shots on target with Pereira playing
However, he saves 10% more shots that Button has done and we are more likely to keep a clean sheet with Pereira in goal.

If we had faced the same number of shots in the last 9 with Button in goal, we would have conceded 2 more goals. This could have naturally had no impact on final scores - i.e both may have been against Cambridge for example, or they could have cost us points.

So overall, Pereira is more likely to keep the ball out of the net but his subjectively weaker organisational skills may lead to more overall shots being conceded. One thing to consider as well, Button is 400 plus games into his career and at his age his skills are only decreasing. Pereira has never had a "home" and never managed to get a run in a side - partially as a result of being at Man Utd and previous poor performance (only 59 game in his career to date).

At 27 (soon 28) he is likely coming in to his prime and if he finally starts a season as #1 and gets a consistant run of games then he is only likely to get better with experience and hopefully cut out some of the errors he clearly has in his locker - see Saturday as prime example.

So at this point, I would say Pereira starts 24/25 as #1 with Button as back up (or moved on) with pressure coming from CBC. Both the senior keepers only have 1 year left on deals (assuming we take the option on JP) so if things don't progress with Pereira, we can pretty quickly move on esp as, if the ownership finally changes, we'll have more flexability in the market from Jan 25 onwards.

[Snowflake Royal]

I've had a look at the basic goalkeeping stats.

Despite everyone criticising Button in goal, we've conceded basically as much with him in goal as we have with Pereira in goal.

Button - Pld 37 - GA 55 - 59.7 mins per GA
Pereira - Pld 9 - GA 14 - 54.6 mins per GA

Even without that stoppage time mistake against Blackpool, it would been slightly in Button's favour (Pereira would've been on 58.8 mins per GA without it).

I maintain Pereira is a much better shot stopper, but Button is better at distribution and organising the defence - things that prevent pressure on the goal in the first place.

I feel Button has been unfairly criticised because of his early season errors. His minutes per goal conceded dropped to 70.0 after Shrewsbury until he got ill before of Derby (40% better than his record until Shrewsbury).

Any thoughts people have on this?

I think that is a very simplistic review of the keepers based on just GA given in any season there will be a percentage of goals that a keeper can do very little with.

Looking at other stats

Button

GA 55
GA per game = 1.51
Shots on Target faced = 141
Shots on Target Per game = 3.8
Save % = 63.8%
CS = 8 (roughly 1 in every 5 games)

Record W 12 D 9 L 15

Pereira

GA 14
Per game = 1.65
Shots on target faced = 44
Per game = 4.88
Save % = 72.7%
Clean Sheets - 3 (1 in every 3 games)

Record W4 D2 L3

The sample for Pereira is small so a direct comparison is probably unfair at this stage but what the stats show:

We allow more shots on target with Pereira playing
However, he saves 10% more shots that Button has done and we are more likely to keep a clean sheet with Pereira in goal.

If we had faced the same number of shots in the last 9 with Button in goal, we would have conceded 2 more goals. This could have naturally had no impact on final scores - i.e both may have been against Cambridge for example, or they could have cost us points.

So overall, Pereira is more likely to keep the ball out of the net but his subjectively weaker organisational skills may lead to more overall shots being conceded. One thing to consider as well, Button is 400 plus games into his career and at his age his skills are only decreasing. Pereira has never had a "home" and never managed to get a run in a side - partially as a result of being at Man Utd and previous poor performance (only 59 game in his career to date).

At 27 (soon 28) he is likely coming in to his prime and if he finally starts a season as #1 and gets a consistant run of games then he is only likely to get better with experience and hopefully cut out some of the errors he clearly has in his locker - see Saturday as prime example.

So at this point, I would say Pereira starts 24/25 as #1 with Button as back up (or moved on) with pressure coming from CBC. Both the senior keepers only have 1 year left on deals (assuming we take the option on JP) so if things don't progress with Pereira, we can pretty quickly move on esp as, if the ownership finally changes, we'll have more flexability in the market from Jan 25 onwards.

Also worth noting a substantial %age of Pereira's games came with Elliott in central midfield and Wing screening defence. Rather than Wing play making further forward and the more defensively suited Craig or Savage screening with him.

Meaning Pereira and his defence had a softer midfield protecting him.

[WestYorksRoyal]

You can judge keepers qualitatively on points won and lost and how many matches they define.

For Button, I can only think of one positive potentially match defining save. Against Wigan when we were 2-0 up, Abbey gave the ball away for a 1 on 1. Button saved, game could have been very different had he not. But he also cost us against Orient and Northampton, and there were multiple games where he basically didn't make an impact. You look at the Portsmouth game where we played great at 0-0 and still in it at 1-0, and if Button makes a difference we could get something out of it. But of course he didn't.

Pereira played a massive role in the Northampton home game, made a big save at 2-0 against Cambridge and at 1-0 down again Blackpool on Saturday. That's a lot of points won. Though he has the 2nd goal against Burton against him, plus the bizarre late one against Blackpool.

But overall, I feel more confident that Pereira can come up trumps in those big moments that can define a season.

[Clyde1998]

You can judge keepers qualitatively on points won and lost and how many matches they define.

For Button, I can only think of one positive potentially match defining save. Against Wigan when we were 2-0 up, Abbey gave the ball away for a 1 on 1. Button saved, game could have been very different had he not. But he also cost us against Orient and Northampton, and there were multiple games where he basically didn't make an impact. You look at the Portsmouth game where we played great at 0-0 and still in it at 1-0, and if Button makes a difference we could get something out of it. But of course he didn't.

Pereira played a massive role in the Northampton home game, made a big save at 2-0 against Cambridge and at 1-0 down again Blackpool on Saturday. That's a lot of points won. Though he has the 2nd goal against Burton against him, plus the bizarre late one against Blackpool.

But overall, I feel more confident that Pereira can come up trumps in those big moments that can define a season.

When it comes to stopping shots, I'd rather have Pereira in goal. I think Button organises the defence better (perhaps to be expected with a more experienced goalkeeper) - leading to less dangerous shots coming in. Certainly can't think of much Button's done wrong once we got past the first third of the season. I may be mis-remembering, but I think when Button made a mistake, he'd typically make multiple in one game.

Confidence in the goalkeepers in an interesting point. From the point of view of the defence, who would you rather have behind you if you made an error? Probably Pereira, due to his stop stopping ability.

That said, I don't believe there would've been cause to drop Button had he not been ill ahead of Derby and Pereira hasn't done anything for him to be replaced since coming in.

Also worth noting a substantial %age of Pereira's games came with Elliott in central midfield and Wing screening defence. Rather than Wing play making further forward and the more defensively suited Craig or Savage screening with him.

Meaning Pereira and his defence had a softer midfield protecting him.

He has, however we were playing the ultra offensive 4-2-4 (4-2-2-2) in the first third of the season - which left Button with little cover. Probably a six or half a dozen thing.