Petition for Sunderland Supporters

[STAR Voice]

A number of Sunderland supporters have been banned from Sunderland despite so far being not found guilty of any offence - and in all likelihood they will be not be found guilty and maybe not even get to court.

The FSF has launched a petition to be presented to Sunderland Chairman Niall Quinn - the same Niall Quinn who so often presents himself as being so very "fan friendly."

Please sign this - even if you think it's nothing to do with us here, this sends a message to clubs and to the football authorities about the importance of due process and the rights of supporters not to be banned when they've not been found guilty of any offence.

The link is : http://www.fsf.org.uk/petitions/sunderl ... tition.php

[Forbury Lion]

A number of Sunderland supporters have been banned from Sunderland despite so far being not found guilty of any offence - and in all likelihood they will be not be found guilty and maybe not even get to court.

There's alot of if's and maybes there.

What are they accused of doing? Were there any witnesses, fans, stewards or otherwise? Any evidence, video or otherwise?

If Reading FC throw someone out will STAR launch an appeal to have them reinstated until such time as they can be tried in an official court of law? or would someone at STAR act as a jury and decide whether the club were right or wrong?

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Have you bothered to read the link FL???

The fans were caught up in a scene at a station, arrested on suspicion, and not charged with anything, would be the same as you going up to QPR on a train, bit of bother, and all RFC fans arrested at the scene, how would you feel to be banned from the Mad had you just been unfortunate to have been in the wrong palce at the wrong time??

[Jerry St Clair]

Please sign this - even if you think it's nothing to do with us here, this sends a message to clubs and to the football authorities about the importance of due process and the rights of supporters not to be banned when they've not been found guilty of any offence.

Why does the petition site email SAFC from my email address? I support this campaign, and want to sign the petition, but I don't want to be involved in a counter-productive spamming of multiple Sunderland email addresses.

[STAR Voice]

Please sign this - even if you think it's nothing to do with us here, this sends a message to clubs and to the football authorities about the importance of due process and the rights of supporters not to be banned when they've not been found guilty of any offence.

Why does the petition site email SAFC from my email address? I support this campaign, and want to sign the petition, but I don't want to be involved in a counter-productive spamming of multiple Sunderland email addresses.

JSC - below is the response from the FSF :

Because that’s the way that we can register support with the club. By an email coming from an address that has been verified, the club know that it’s a real person who agrees with the protest.

Re the spamming thing, we make sure all of the emails have the same subject so that diverting them into a folder is a very straightforward task their end.

I've talked to them and basically a petiton is worthless unless there is verification that a person is real - the fact that SAFC are getting all these e-mails proves to them that all these people signing this are real and they get to see the numbers first hand.

[Forbury Lion]

Have you bothered to read the link FL???

The fans were caught up in a scene at a station, arrested on suspicion, and not charged with anything, would be the same as you going up to QPR on a train, bit of bother, and all RFC fans arrested at the scene, how would you feel to be banned from the Mad had you just been unfortunate to have been in the wrong palce at the wrong time??

To be honest, If I was banned I think the club would be doing me a favour, but I get your point.

Some of the comments raised in my post are still valid - Would STAR back supporters claims of innocence up until such a time that they were found guilty in a court of law or charged with an offence or would they take they support he clubs judgement or even have their own jury? e.g. Reading fan banned claims innocence, police do not arrest them, no video evidence, their word against another witness.

[STAR Voice]

Some of the comments raised in my post are still valid - Would STAR back supporters claims of innocence up until such a time that they were found guilty in a court of law or charged with an offence or would they take they support he clubs judgement or even have their own jury? e.g. Reading fan banned claims innocence, police do not arrest them, no video evidence, their word against another witness.

Categorically, yes - due process is vitally important.

So we believe action can only be taken against supporters if there is evidence against them, which they have the right to see/hear. They also need to be give the right of appeal.

It gets more complicated in cases of "my word against his", but such cases with minimal evidence tend not to lead to bans anyway.

The FSF will also provide supporters with free legal advice where appropriate and offer a number of other services for supporters - see http://www.fsf.org.uk/fan-in-trouble.php

[Ian Royal]

Some of the comments raised in my post are still valid - Would STAR back supporters claims of innocence up until such a time that they were found guilty in a court of law or charged with an offence or would they take they support he clubs judgement or even have their own jury? e.g. Reading fan banned claims innocence, police do not arrest them, no video evidence, their word against another witness.

Categorically, yes - due process is vitally important.

So we believe action can only be taken against supporters if there is evidence against them, which they have the right to see/hear. They also need to be give the right of appeal.

It gets more complicated in cases of "my word against his", but such cases with minimal evidence tend not to lead to bans anyway.

The FSF will also provide supporters with free legal advice where appropriate and offer a number of other services for supporters - see http://www.fsf.org.uk/fan-in-trouble.php

What if the fan punches a steward, and there is evidence, but neither the steward, club or police are interested in pressing charges because there was no injury caused? It's clear the offence has been committed, but according to this (s)he can carry on going to games happy as larry until a conviction is made by a court?

What if a fan consistently uses verbal racial abuse at a club official? Does that fan need to be convicted of something in a court of law to be banned?

I'd support a petition asking for these fans to have their case reviewed properly by SAFC, but I think the statements on that petition stink and wouldn't sign it under any circumstances.

[STAR Voice]

What if the fan punches a steward, and there is evidence, but neither the steward, club or police are interested in pressing charges because there was no injury caused? It's clear the offence has been committed, but according to this (s)he can carry on going to games happy as larry until a conviction is made by a court?

What if a fan consistently uses verbal racial abuse at a club official? Does that fan need to be convicted of something in a court of law to be banned?

Those examples are pretty fatuous, and not parallels to the situation here, as both of them happen on football club premises and so the football club has clear evidence of them, through their own staff members if nothing else. In which case it's clear cut and there should be no problem with a ban, which would be fully justified.

The difference is that SAFC have banned supporters on the basis of something that apparently happened elsewhere, for which they have no evidence - or in fact have no knowledge whether any evidence actually exists.

And going back to your first example, I can't imagine any circumstances where a supporter could punch a steward and no action would be taken against them - that scenario is pretty far-fetched to say the least!

I'd support a petition asking for these fans to have their case reviewed properly by SAFC, but I think the statements on that petition stink and wouldn't sign it under any circumstances.

Please let me know which ones you have an issue with and I'll be happy to answer them one by one, but I'm afraid your last statement is so general and indistinct that it's impossible to respond to.

[Dirk Gently]

Very good article about this here

[Jerry St Clair]

Very good article about this here

Has anyone asked Niall Quinn about this directly? If so, what was his response?

[working class hero]

I would see this as an analogue of a suspension from work. It is not a punishment - merely a holding measure whilst inquiries are made.
Those who are cleared should be reimbursed for missed matches - others banned.

Seems to me like the FSF getting on its high horse again.

[TheMaraudingDog]

LOL @

Without seeing the unedited CCTV images that the police will not release it is impossible to decide who or what sparked the trouble.

But I have little doubt that the police over-reacted that night using the sort of aggressive response in dealing with a large crowd that was discredited at the G20 protest.