BFTG - Forest

[NewCorkSeth]

McShane as Captain: Home (away)
Games - 15 (13)
Goals Conceded - 9 (31)
Clean Sheets - 7 (2)

Gunter as Captain: Home (away)
Games - 7 (9)
Goals Conceded - 7 (15)
Clean Sheets - 2 (3)

HOME FORM TABLE - WHO WAS CAPTAIN?

1 Brighton & Hove - McShane (loss)
2 Reading
3 Sheffield Wed - Gunter (win)
4 Huddersfield - Gunter (loss)
5 Norwich City - Gunter (loss)
6 Leeds Utd - McShane (loss)
7 Aston Villa - Gunter (win)
8 Newcastle Utd - McShane (loss)
9 Brentford - McShane (loss)
10 Preston - McShane (loss)
11 Derby County - McShane (loss)
12 Fulham - McShane (loss)
13 Nottm Forest - Gunter (loss)
14 Bristol City - McShane (win)
15 Cardiff City - McShane (win)
16 Ipswich Town - Gunter (draw)
17 Burton Albion - N/A
18 Blackburn - McShane (win)
19 Barnsley - McShane (win)
20 QPR - Gunter (draw)
21 Birmingham City - Gunter (win)
22 Wolverhampton - McShane (loss)
23 Wigan Athletic - McShane (win)
24 Rotherham - Gunter (win)

From that I guess we can see that McShane led teams have struggled against the top 12 teams (not including us) away from home this season not picking up a single win. Whereas Gunter led teams picked up 2 victories out of a possible 4 against the same top 12 teams.
I guess McShane should only play home games?

-------EDIT-------
This presumes, possibly incorrectly, that Gunter has been captain every time McShane has been absent.

[NewCorkSeth]

Ah, the usual escapegoat. Here's a little stat for you.

Away games with Gunter as captain - Goals Scored 13. Goals Conceded 15. ppg 1.56

Away games with Macca as captain - Goals scored12. Goals Conceded 29. ppg 1.25

If he's such a shrinking violet away from home, how on earth is he coping as captain?

Maybe it's not Stam's loyalty that is unfounded, but your unrelenting prejudice against a decent player.

I gotta ask. How many games is that each?

Well you could have counted yourself 13 away games for McShane as captain, 9 for Gunter. But I made a couple of mistakes. One, Rotherham, Gunter started as captain, but Macca came on (and scored the winning goal). So I'll include that one in Macca's total instead - giving him 14 games. And the loss to Leeds which I left off completely in the original calculation.

So - revised totals:

Gunter - 8 games, goals scored 12, goals conceded 15, ppg 1.375
Macca, 14 games, goals scored 13, goals conceded 31, ppg 1.29

I just went away and did! Made the same mistake you did which has ruined my big long post...

[muirinho]

I gotta ask. How many games is that each?

Well you could have counted yourself 13 away games for McShane as captain, 9 for Gunter. But I made a couple of mistakes. One, Rotherham, Gunter started as captain, but Macca came on (and scored the winning goal). So I'll include that one in Macca's total instead - giving him 14 games. And the loss to Leeds which I left off completely in the original calculation.

So - revised totals:

Gunter - 8 games, goals scored 12, goals conceded 15, ppg 1.375
Macca, 14 games, goals scored 13, goals conceded 31, ppg 1.29

I just went away and did! Made the same mistake you did which has ruined my big long post...

Edit quickly before anybody notices :~)

BTW, in case anybody thinks I'm having a go at Macca with this analysis, I'm not. I happen to think it's the midfield that has more of an influence on how many we concede away from home. But I'm too lazy to try and work out combinations. Gut instinct is that if Evans or Joey don't play we have problems away from home. If anybody is bored right now, and wants to do similar analysis with/without one of those two I'd love to see it.

[leon]

Absobloodylutely! Although having been to the Fulham and Man Utd debacles earlier in the year, I'd say this wasn't as bad by any stretch. IMO yesterday we really should have equalised....The panic that set in the Forest players after Yann's first shows why they are where they are. Previous to that, they'd looked like the team in our position. If we finish 3rd or 4th, having the away leg of the play off first scares me. We could be 3 or 4 goals behind by the start of the 2nd leg!

I don't think it will go like that in the play offs. We will play with higher intensity, concentration and aggression in those all important playoff games.

We have a tendency to drop off and get complacent when it looks like it is job done this season.
When the team needed a result like away at Sheffield Wednesday and Villa by George they got one.

Don't read too much into these final few games. They won't mean anything once the play offs start.

It was similar at the end of last season. The games didn't mean anything, but all you foolish nobbers over analysed and Brian ended up getting sacked for nothing.

Sacked for nothing?

The only 'progress' we were making that season (not just towards the end) was downwards and we were bored silly with shyte football and even worse results. Even those who say they are bored with Jaap's football would have to accept it's brought good results and progress in the right direction.

McDermott was sacked because you can't progress through sentimentality alone and we desperately needed to 'move on'.

Penis

[Ian Royal]

As for Stam, a top defender and yet , for whatever reason, cannot get his team to defend as successfully as they do at home.
Presumably tactics do come into it as the defenders are the same players.
I think it revolves around the ever-present Gunter in that he has played every game, home and away, in the league-he doesn't have much to do defensively in home games but when he needs to stand up and be counted away from home he is just a shrinking violet.
Maybe Stam doesn't see Watson as the answer but his loyalty to Gunter is unfounded and yes, naive in his first season as a manager.

Ah, the usual escapegoat. Here's a little stat for you.

Away games with Gunter as captain - Goals Scored 13. Goals Conceded 15. ppg 1.56

Away games with Macca as captain - Goals scored12. Goals Conceded 29. ppg 1.25

If he's such a shrinking violet away from home, how on earth is he coping as captain?

Maybe it's not Stam's loyalty that is unfounded, but your unrelenting prejudice against a decent player.

Weren't we utter shit when Gunter was captain in Jem's absence?

Lovely guy, I'm sure he makes a wonderful confidante and go between to Stam for the players... but as a pitch side leader - well, he's never looked like much of one to me. He's just too soft. Too nice. To average at everything. He's a nearly man, not a winner. There's not enough steel or nasty in him.

Only my opinion of course.

[muirinho]

As for Stam, a top defender and yet , for whatever reason, cannot get his team to defend as successfully as they do at home.
Presumably tactics do come into it as the defenders are the same players.
I think it revolves around the ever-present Gunter in that he has played every game, home and away, in the league-he doesn't have much to do defensively in home games but when he needs to stand up and be counted away from home he is just a shrinking violet.
Maybe Stam doesn't see Watson as the answer but his loyalty to Gunter is unfounded and yes, naive in his first season as a manager.

Ah, the usual escapegoat. Here's a little stat for you.

Away games with Gunter as captain - Goals Scored 13. Goals Conceded 15. ppg 1.56

Away games with Macca as captain - Goals scored12. Goals Conceded 29. ppg 1.25

If he's such a shrinking violet away from home, how on earth is he coping as captain?

Maybe it's not Stam's loyalty that is unfounded, but your unrelenting prejudice against a decent player.

Weren't we utter shit when Gunter was captain in Jem's absence?

So you ignore quantifiable stats and come back with unquantifiable* suppositions, because you can't admit you might bring wrong. Excellent hobnobbing Ian, well done!

*Unquantifiable because Jem never had a run as team captain under the same manager with the same squad. So we'd be comparing apples with oranges. FWIW, under Adkins with Gunts as captain we got the miserable total of 24 points in 20 games, but with Pearce/Karacan under Clarke for the rest of that season we got 25 points in 25 games, which is worse! So even your fake facts don't support your case.

Morro BTW captained first game of the season, which we drew. So his ppg is the same that season as Pearce/Karacan. Clearly the best of the lot was Gunts

[Ian Royal]

Ah, the usual escapegoat. Here's a little stat for you.

Away games with Gunter as captain - Goals Scored 13. Goals Conceded 15. ppg 1.56

Away games with Macca as captain - Goals scored12. Goals Conceded 29. ppg 1.25

If he's such a shrinking violet away from home, how on earth is he coping as captain?

Maybe it's not Stam's loyalty that is unfounded, but your unrelenting prejudice against a decent player.

Weren't we utter shit when Gunter was captain in Jem's absence?

So you ignore quantifiable stats and come back with unquantifiable* suppositions, because you can't admit you might bring wrong. Excellent hobnobbing Ian, well done!

*Unquantifiable because Jem never had a run as team captain under the same manager with the same squad. So we'd be comparing apples with oranges. FWIW, under Adkins with Gunts as captain we got the miserable total of 24 points in 20 games, but with Pearce/Karacan under Clarke for the rest of that season we got 25 points in 25 games, which is worse! So even your fake facts don't support your case.

Morro BTW captained first game of the season, which we drew. So his ppg is the same that season as Pearce/Karacan. Clearly the best of the lot was Gunts

Bit of a spaz out there. I simply said we did badly when Gunts stood in for Jem, not worse than anyone else, as a counterpoint to your argument we've done well this season.

Trying to pretend points per game proves anything about a captaincy is your daft area.

Clearly the team, form and manager are far more relevant to results than captain.

[Top Flight]

Ian, you were just looking for another excuse to have a pop at the best right back in the Championship.

You have only watched highlights of Reading this season. I can tell you that Gunter has been a model of consistency for the Royals this season. He has added steel and agression to his game. He has been ruthless in the way he has marked wingers out of the game.

[CrowthorneRoyal]

Did we stop their left winger from just running past Gunts/Popa at any point? Every single time, my sphincter twitched.

One further thought, while the walk to the ground is pretty pish, its a lovely ground to arrive early to, sit by the river and watch the womens quad skulls. Anyone know what the biker motorcade was for?

The bikes were members of a Facebook group called Sportster Sickness and 503 of them were Harley Davidson Sportsters.

[Davezk]

Well on Saturday the forest winger went past gunter 1 on 1 with ease every single time. As a defender he should have done more to stop him.

[stealthpapes]

Did we stop their left winger from just running past Gunts/Popa at any point? Every single time, my sphincter twitched.

One further thought, while the walk to the ground is pretty pish, its a lovely ground to arrive early to, sit by the river and watch the womens quad skulls. Anyone know what the biker motorcade was for?

The bikes were members of a Facebook group called Sportster Sickness and 503 of them were Harley Davidson Sportsters.

cheers,

[BR2]

There have been about ten times this season when Stam has made a selection which has made me question his judgement. In all but one or two of those, he's got it absolutely right.

At this point he could play Kermorgant in goal and I'd have to accept that he was probably right.

I always find it odd when posters have a go on a football website at another poster who DARES to say anything derogatory about a manager on the basis that the manager always knows best as he has played at the highest level.
I give you Neville, Hyppia, Zola, John Barnes even the great Bobby Moore as examples of top level players who have not succeeded as managers and presumably along the way have at times been accused of being tactically naive.

As for Stam, a top defender and yet , for whatever reason, cannot get his team to defend as successfully as they do at home.
Presumably tactics do come into it as the defenders are the same players.
I think it revolves around the ever-present Gunter in that he has played every game, home and away, in the league-he doesn't have much to do defensively in home games but when he needs to stand up and be counted away from home he is just a shrinking violet.
Maybe Stam doesn't see Watson as the answer but his loyalty to Gunter is unfounded and yes, naive in his first season as a manager.

Overall I feel that he has done a great job with what he has got and so far bought but on a message board I see no wrong in fans criticising when we ship 7 or give up 3 to a side just off one of the relegation spots or ship 5 against a team just below us in the league.

Victor I'm querying why people use the expression. It's fcuking annoying and actually meaningless.

FWIW I agree with you about the expression being annoying.
I do however disagree with the point that a fan shouldn't criticise a manager just because he was once a very good player.

[BR2]

As for Stam, a top defender and yet , for whatever reason, cannot get his team to defend as successfully as they do at home.
Presumably tactics do come into it as the defenders are the same players.
I think it revolves around the ever-present Gunter in that he has played every game, home and away, in the league-he doesn't have much to do defensively in home games but when he needs to stand up and be counted away from home he is just a shrinking violet.
Maybe Stam doesn't see Watson as the answer but his loyalty to Gunter is unfounded and yes, naive in his first season as a manager.

Ah, the usual escapegoat. Here's a little stat for you.

Away games with Gunter as captain - Goals Scored 13. Goals Conceded 15. ppg 1.56

Away games with Macca as captain - Goals scored12. Goals Conceded 29. ppg 1.25

If he's such a shrinking violet away from home, how on earth is he coping as captain?

Maybe it's not Stam's loyalty that is unfounded, but your unrelenting prejudice against a decent player.

I gotta ask. How many games is that each?

You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble producing stats about captaincy being linked to results when the posting was about Gunter the player and f*** all to do with the captaincy, something that IMHO is mainly insignificant in football and indeed most sports
What strikes me as odd is that Ali is probably our player of the year, Liam Moore probably up there as well, Blackett has had many favourable mentions of late as has Obita and yet our defensive record away from home is dire.
My point was that Gunter is an ever present, ergo a big part of the problem.

Now, if somebody widens the argument to include defending being something that occurs all over the pitch then so be it but generally it is the same players home and away and yet our defensive home record is very good.
Gunter was in the side that got relegated, he was in the side for the last two useless seasons and this year he is in the side that has a dreadful record defending away from home-even the dimmest can surely see that there is a link there.

[NewCorkSeth]

Ah, the usual escapegoat. Here's a little stat for you.

Away games with Gunter as captain - Goals Scored 13. Goals Conceded 15. ppg 1.56

Away games with Macca as captain - Goals scored12. Goals Conceded 29. ppg 1.25

If he's such a shrinking violet away from home, how on earth is he coping as captain?

Maybe it's not Stam's loyalty that is unfounded, but your unrelenting prejudice against a decent player.

I gotta ask. How many games is that each?

You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble producing stats about captaincy being linked to results when the posting was about Gunter the player and f*** all to do with the captaincy, something that IMHO is mainly insignificant in football and indeed most sports
What strikes me as odd is that Ali is probably our player of the year, Liam Moore probably up there as well, Blackett has had many favourable mentions of late as has Obita and yet our defensive record away from home is dire.
My point was that Gunter is an ever present, ergo a big part of the problem.

Now, if somebody widens the argument to include defending being something that occurs all over the pitch then so be it but generally it is the same players home and away and yet our defensive home record is very good.
Gunter was in the side that got relegated, he was in the side for the last two useless seasons and this year he is in the side that has a dreadful record defending away from home-even the dimmest can surely see that there is a link there.

Personally, I don't think gunter is great. I've been a vocal critic for almost his entire career with us. What I was trying to find out was whether the games McShane missed were against the top home sides this season (they majority weren't) as his exclusion from games is often quoted as the reason we have leaked goals.

It was just interesting to me that the away games against the teams with the best home record shows we have performed better without McShane. Obviously there are numerous other factors (one person rather sensibly suggested our midfield shape/starters might show more - but who has time for that?)

[bobby1413]

It's a shame Garath McCleary isn't a nobber (presumably?) as it would be good to have his view

[Top Flight]

I gotta ask. How many games is that each?

You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble producing stats about captaincy being linked to results when the posting was about Gunter the player and f*** all to do with the captaincy, something that IMHO is mainly insignificant in football and indeed most sports
What strikes me as odd is that Ali is probably our player of the year, Liam Moore probably up there as well, Blackett has had many favourable mentions of late as has Obita and yet our defensive record away from home is dire.
My point was that Gunter is an ever present, ergo a big part of the problem.

Now, if somebody widens the argument to include defending being something that occurs all over the pitch then so be it but generally it is the same players home and away and yet our defensive home record is very good.
Gunter was in the side that got relegated, he was in the side for the last two useless seasons and this year he is in the side that has a dreadful record defending away from home-even the dimmest can surely see that there is a link there.

Personally, I don't think gunter is great. I've been a vocal critic for almost his entire career with us. What I was trying to find out was whether the games McShane missed were against the top home sides this season (they majority weren't) as his exclusion from games is often quoted as the reason we have leaked goals.

It was just interesting to me that the away games against the teams with the best home record shows we have performed better without McShane. Obviously there are numerous other factors (one person rather sensibly suggested our midfield shape/starters might show more - but who has time for that?)

At Norwich the midfield three were Kelly, Swift and Mutch. That is just asking for trouble.

When we play with Williams and either Evans or Joey in midfield then the back four will get much more protection.

Stam has to decide on a game by game basis what the balance will be between attacking flair and defensive solidity.

Gunter has all the tools. He has never let us down. If he had a face like Diego Costa then you would all love him. Gunter is the boy that all the parents would love their daughters to bring home. It's just his face doesn't fit. His face doesn't fit a hard edged, ruthless looking football team. But, in terms of his performances Gunter is as ruthless and hard as any right back RFC have ever had.

[Top Flight]

It's a shame Garath McCleary isn't a nobber (presumably?) as it would be good to have his view

If GMAC were to reveal himself on here, then you will not get a true opinion. You would only get his real views anonymously or discreetly in the pub if he trusts you.

[muirinho]

Ah, the usual escapegoat. Here's a little stat for you.

Away games with Gunter as captain - Goals Scored 13. Goals Conceded 15. ppg 1.56

Away games with Macca as captain - Goals scored12. Goals Conceded 29. ppg 1.25

If he's such a shrinking violet away from home, how on earth is he coping as captain?

Maybe it's not Stam's loyalty that is unfounded, but your unrelenting prejudice against a decent player.

I gotta ask. How many games is that each?

You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble producing stats about captaincy being linked to results when the posting was about Gunter the player and f*** all to do with the captaincy, something that IMHO is mainly insignificant in football and indeed most sports
What strikes me as odd is that Ali is probably our player of the year, Liam Moore probably up there as well, Blackett has had many favourable mentions of late as has Obita and yet our defensive record away from home is dire.
My point was that Gunter is an ever present, ergo a big part of the problem.

Now, if somebody widens the argument to include defending being something that occurs all over the pitch then so be it but generally it is the same players home and away and yet our defensive home record is very good.
Gunter was in the side that got relegated, he was in the side for the last two useless seasons and this year he is in the side that has a dreadful record defending away from home-even the dimmest can surely see that there is a link there.

I didn't specifically go to a lot of trouble for that query, I already had the stats because of a post on another thread where I was arguing that getting Macca back isn't necessarily the answer to all of our problems (I think it's the midfielders who are more important). The stats on the 2014 season took about 5 minutes. Dragging up old seasons is daft anyway, because there are so many variables, which is why I thought Ian's post was irrelevant nonsense.

Regardless of how much effort it took me anyway, the point stands - the original post specifically slated Gunter for being soft away. Yet when he is in charge of a defence that isn't the first choice and it's away, the results are actually on average not too bad. Would you say it's Macca that's soft away? - after all he was part of that team last year as well, wasn't he - and as I've pointed out already, away results this season are much worse when he's there. If you're not going to say Macca is soft away, then it's ridiculous to blame somebody with a better record.

The original post was clearly utter rubbish - you're making yourself look silly by defending it

[BR2]

I gotta ask. How many games is that each?

You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble producing stats about captaincy being linked to results when the posting was about Gunter the player and f*** all to do with the captaincy, something that IMHO is mainly insignificant in football and indeed most sports
What strikes me as odd is that Ali is probably our player of the year, Liam Moore probably up there as well, Blackett has had many favourable mentions of late as has Obita and yet our defensive record away from home is dire.
My point was that Gunter is an ever present, ergo a big part of the problem.

Now, if somebody widens the argument to include defending being something that occurs all over the pitch then so be it but generally it is the same players home and away and yet our defensive home record is very good.
Gunter was in the side that got relegated, he was in the side for the last two useless seasons and this year he is in the side that has a dreadful record defending away from home-even the dimmest can surely see that there is a link there.

I didn't specifically go to a lot of trouble for that query, I already had the stats because of a post on another thread where I was arguing that getting Macca back isn't necessarily the answer to all of our problems (I think it's the midfielders who are more important). The stats on the 2014 season took about 5 minutes. Dragging up old seasons is daft anyway, because there are so many variables, which is why I thought Ian's post was irrelevant nonsense.

Regardless of how much effort it took me anyway, the point stands - the original post specifically slated Gunter for being soft away. Yet when he is in charge of a defence that isn't the first choice and it's away, the results are actually on average not too bad. Would you say it's Macca that's soft away? - after all he was part of that team last year as well, wasn't he - and as I've pointed out already, away results this season are much worse when he's there. If you're not going to say Macca is soft away, then it's ridiculous to blame somebody with a better record.

The original post was clearly utter rubbish - you're making yourself look silly by defending it

Total red herring.
A captain is not as you put it " in charge of a defence"-he is the bloke who attends the tossing of the coin at the start of a game and, apart from the rare great influence of the manager's representative on the pitch such as John Terry,Vincent Kompany or Bobby Moore, that is the extent of the captain's role in the team.
Your stats fail in any event because , as Ian said, other factors need to be taken into account such as form of the opposition at the time, team selection of our own side and the manager's tactics.
Anyway my point stands, Gunter is a wuss and hopefully next season we will have somebody better in that position and, if we go up, many additions and changes elsewhere in the team.

[muirinho]

Gunter was in the side that got relegated, he was in the side for the last two useless seasons and this year he is in the side that has a dreadful record defending away from home-even the dimmest can surely see that there is a link there.

Your stats fail in any event because , as Ian said, other factors need to be taken into account such as form of the opposition at the time, team selection of our own side and the manager's tactics.

You can't have it both ways.

Either other factors need to be taken into account, in which case you can't blame Gunter (or pick out any other single player to blame), because he may be constant, but everything else is revolving (even Gunter isn't that constant, he's played in 4 or 5 different defensive positions so far this season)
OR you ignore other factors, and just look at who's playing on the day for the away games - in which case my statistics stand.

Which is it?