Sporting Integrity

[PieEater]

After the comments from the EFL I started wondering what they really mean by Sporting Integrity. The league has clubs with a wide range of salaries and attendences and roughly the league position reflects that .



It looks like our wage bill is about £1m larger than comparable clubs/attendences, and Oxford are cheating.

[From Despair To Where?]

Not defending Oxford but as far I'm aware, they don't make either/or decisions regarding paying their staff and HMRC.

[PieEater]

Not defending Oxford but as far I'm aware, they don't make either/or decisions regarding paying their staff and HMRC.

]

My question was what is this Sporting Integrity the EFL are protecting, not about our payments to HMRC.

There are clubs paying wages relative to their attendences which relates to their income, and others that arent.

[Stranded]

Sporting Integrity only comes into it once you do not meet your obligations.

You can run your club pretty much however you like as long as you pay your bills and losses fall within agreed limits.

We have a still, for L1, relatively large wage bill but our budget falls within that agreed with the EFL - if we, or more accurately, Dai had paid the tax bills on time then we wouldn't be staring at this mess.

As soon as we hit the 45 day cumulative late payment threshold, then we hit a problem - if we had stayed under that, when staff where not paid to ensure players were, all the could do is tut on the sidelines and bemoan the situation once more. The owner gave them no choice but to charge us and then they had to act.

Why? Because if the club had decided to pay staff, there wasn't then the money to pay the players, so we would have already have been deducted at least 4 points - so by doing so we are currently 2 points better off that we should be under the rules of the competition because we decided to try and use a loophole. Because the owner continues to be a twat - he can't even "cheat" properly so we don't even get the benefit they though they would get by not paying staff.

It's just fcuking disgusting behaviour by the owner really.

[From Despair To Where?]

Sporting integrity is all about everyone playing to the same rules. As members of the EFL, we have signed up to conditions that we have not adhered to for a number of years. Was it sporting integrity that we played at a higher level for a number of years with a wage bill over 200% of our income? Everything that has happened since has happened because we failed to meet those obligations; the initial 6 pt deduction, the suspended 6pt deduction because we failed to meet financial rules and the deductions this season as result of either our failure to adhere to the financial rules and/or our owners failure or unwillingness to fulfil his obligations as an owner.

Whilst other clubs fulfil their financial commitments they are adhering to the rules and the notion of sporting integrity that they signed up to as member of the EFL.

All this semantic bullshit does not deflect from the fact that we, as a business have failed to meet our obligations and, as such, only we are to blame.

I also absolutely get the arguements about sporting integrity. We shouted the same thing about Derby when they kept hold of players like Tom Lawrence after administration and turned down transfer offers.

[PieEater]

It seems to me that their sporting integrity is financial doping up to a limit.

They know paying more wages gets better results and they encourage owners to gamble for that. I'm not sure how else they can run it but the current system doesn't seem too fair to me if your owner doesn't bankroll your success. It looks like around a third of the division have owners that don't.

[From Despair To Where?]

No, it's about clubs spending to achieve success and then not adhering to their commitments.

It's clearly a sporting advantage if you can't or won't pay the bills to maintain your level of spending.

[Snowflake Royal]

It seems to me that their sporting integrity is financial doping up to a limit.

They know paying more wages gets better results and they encourage owners to gamble for that. I'm not sure how else they can run it but the current system doesn't seem too fair to me if your owner doesn't bankroll your success. It looks like around a third of the division have owners that don't.

They are the owners.

It really winds me up, people trying to spread blame onto the FL. There is one place for blame, and its on the people running the club. Dai Yongge, his staff, and the other directors. But mainly Dai Yongge.

Every chant of 'oxf*rd the EFL' and complaint against them, should be vitriol directed at Dai.

And certain posters always bitching about the EFL, not calling out PieEater here to be clear, should maybe take a look at their posting history and constant bitching about Madejski not spending enough and 'where's the money gone'. Because we're reaping what Dai Yongge sowed doing exactly what they wanted Madejski to do. Spend massively beyond our means and get us into devastating financial and sporting difficulties as a result.

Yes, I'm looking at you RB.

The rules and system is flawed. But the fix to that is the PL clubs and FL clubs choosing to collectively be responsible when not doing so is the route to succesz. Or Gov legislating.

[PieEater]

It seems to me that their sporting integrity is financial doping up to a limit.

They know paying more wages gets better results and they encourage owners to gamble for that. I'm not sure how else they can run it but the current system doesn't seem too fair to me if your owner doesn't bankroll your success. It looks like around a third of the division have owners that don't.

They are the owners.

It really winds me up, people trying to spread blame onto the FL. There is one place for blame, and its on the people running the club. Dai Yongge, his staff, and the other directors. But mainly Dai Yongge.

Every chant of 'oxf*rd the EFL' and complaint against them, should be vitriol directed at Dai.

And certain posters always bitching about the EFL, not calling out PieEater here to be clear, should maybe take a look at their posting history and constant bitching about Madejski not spending enough and 'where's the money gone'. Because we're reaping what Dai Yongge sowed doing exactly what they wanted Madejski to do. Spend massively beyond our means and get us into devastating financial and sporting difficulties as a result.

Yes, I'm looking at you RB.

The rules and system is flawed. But the fix to that is the PL clubs and FL clubs choosing to collectively be responsible when not doing so is the route to succesz. Or Gov legislating.

Not surprisingly you've completely missed the point I raised and gone off on another rant.

[Snowflake Royal]

It seems to me that their sporting integrity is financial doping up to a limit.

They know paying more wages gets better results and they encourage owners to gamble for that. I'm not sure how else they can run it but the current system doesn't seem too fair to me if your owner doesn't bankroll your success. It looks like around a third of the division have owners that don't.

They are the owners.

It really winds me up, people trying to spread blame onto the FL. There is one place for blame, and its on the people running the club. Dai Yongge, his staff, and the other directors. But mainly Dai Yongge.

Every chant of 'oxf*rd the EFL' and complaint against them, should be vitriol directed at Dai.

And certain posters always bitching about the EFL, not calling out PieEater here to be clear, should maybe take a look at their posting history and constant bitching about Madejski not spending enough and 'where's the money gone'. Because we're reaping what Dai Yongge sowed doing exactly what they wanted Madejski to do. Spend massively beyond our means and get us into devastating financial and sporting difficulties as a result.

Yes, I'm looking at you RB.

The rules and system is flawed. But the fix to that is the PL clubs and FL clubs choosing to collectively be responsible when not doing so is the route to succesz. Or Gov legislating.

Not surprisingly you've completely missed the point I raised and gone off on another rant.

It's been pretty adequately covered by FDTW and Stranded already.

[Clyde1998]

After the comments from the EFL I started wondering what they really mean by Sporting Integrity. The league has clubs with a wide range of salaries and attendences and roughly the league position reflects that .



It looks like our wage bill is about £1m larger than comparable clubs/attendences, and Oxford are cheating.

What's the source of the wage bill? Different estimates from different sources will show different results.

On the recently updated Football Manager database (post January transfer window), League One clubs spend the following on player wages (basic salaries - excluding bonuses) per annum [highest paid 25 players in square brackets]:

1. Derby - £8.695m [£7.904m]
2. Bolton - £6.747m [£5.967m]
3. Charlton - £6.675m [£5.724m]
4. Portsmouth - £6.033m [£5.117m]
5. Oxford - £5.461m [£4.932m]
6. Blackpool - £5.366m [£4.797m]
7. Wigan - £5.055m [£4.479m]
8. Barnsley - £4.771m [£4.129m]
9. Peterborough - £4.260m [£3.688m]
10. Reading - £3.846m [£2.896m]
11. Bristol Rovers - £3.676m [£3.423m]
12. Wycombe - £3.644m [£3.339m]
13. Exeter - £3.469m [£3.045m]
14. Cambridge - £3.431m [£2.948m]
15. Burton - £3.396m [£2.857m]
16. Leyton Orient - £3.357m [£3.020m]
17. Stevenage - £3.258m [£3.060m]
18. Carlisle - £3.182m [£2.794m]
19. Shrewsbury - £3.095m [£2.859m]
20. Lincoln - £3.095m [£2.820m]
21. Northampton - £2.830m [£2.522m]
22. Port Vale - £2.830m [£2.658m]
23. Fleetwood - £2.709m [£2.105m]
24. Cheltenham - £2.100m [£1.833m]

If our wage bill to average attendance ratio was the divisional average, we'd be spending £6.183m on wages.

[Hound]

I know it’s not totally the point but a big chunk of that 6m would have been Ejaria’s salary I’m guessing. And he didn’t play for us and since had the contract terminated

So it may end up being a bit lower

(And yeah I know other clubs may have similar but not on 15k p/w)

[PieEater]

What's the source of the wage bill? Different estimates from different sources will show different results..

Google.
Actually https://www.capology.com/uk/league-one/salaries/

I've no idea how accurate it is but they seem to have quotes for all major leagues.

[From Despair To Where?]

Salary Sport is the other one and it gives Individual breakdowns

https://salarysport.com/football/league-one/reading/

I wouldn't claim either is accurate but it's a decent ballpark to start a discussion

There's a difference of about £1m between their overall figures and they both list loanees' full salaries, so I assume you can knock off about £750,000 a year given that they list Ejaria, Ballard and Mukariu at about £17,500 a week combined. There's also Holmes, McIntyre, Abbey and Vickers listed which is about another £400,000 annually.

It does put Smith, Knibbs and Wing at about £750,000 a year so, if that's even 90% accurate, for other clubs to suggest we couldn't really afford them does have some foundation.

The eye opener is Dean. I do hope there's a misplaced decimal point there.

I think £3.5m-4.5m total is a realistic figure for right now. We are struggling to service that commitment which again suggests, for whatever reason, we are still spending more than Dai is prepared to cover, even if it is within the budget set by the EFL.

[Clyde1998]

Salary Sport is the other one and it gives Individual breakdowns

https://salarysport.com/football/league-one/reading/

I wouldn't claim either is accurate but it's a decent ballpark to start a discussion

There's a difference of about £1m between their overall figures and they both list loanees' full salaries, so I assume you can knock off about £750,000 a year given that they list Ejaria, Ballard and Mukariu at about £17,500 a week combined. There's also Holmes, McIntyre, Abbey and Vickers listed which is about another £400,000 annually.

It does put Smith, Knibbs and Wing at about £750,000 a year so, if that's even 90% accurate, for other clubs to suggest we couldn't really afford them does have some foundation.

The eye opener is Dean. I do hope there's a misplaced decimal point there.

I think £3.5m-4.5m total is a realistic figure for right now. We are struggling to service that commitment which again suggests, for whatever reason, we are still spending more than Dai is prepared to cover, even if it is within the budget set by the EFL.

FWIW, the Football Manager figures for our loanees are: Holmes £3k p/w (33%); Ballard £2.5k p/w (50%); Mukairu £1.4k p/w (25%); Monlouis £0.5k p/w (25%). I believe that figure for Holmes is around what FM suggested we were paying him before Luton signed him.

In terms of our outgoing loans: Stevenage and Carlisle are apparently paying all the wages for Guinness-Walker (£2.5k p/w) and Andresson (£1.5k p/w) respectively and Sutton are paying half of Bouzanis' £1.5k p/w. FM also suggests Dean is on £5k p/w - although he's the only player I'd say is on an unreasonable wage in the squad.

The biggest differences between what Football Manager and Salary Sport suggest are: Button £2.5k / £1.4k; Mola £2.5k / £3.4k; Azeez £1.5k / £2.3k; Rushesha £1.2k / £600; Yiadom £3k / £3.5k; Elliott £2k / £2.5k. All others are within £500p/w.

Around £4m p/a seems about right for basic salary - and that's around average for League One - notwithstanding Ejaria being paid at a reduced rate until the end of the season.

[Lower West]

There's also 13.8% employers national insurance on top of the gross pay figures. On a £5 million payroll. That's £690k on top.

[From Despair To Where?]

So basically, and, I'm just using very rough calculations to look at a ball park figure, our tax liability on a monthly wage bill of £450,000 (including all staff), is maybe in the region of £150k-£200k? I appreciate the bulk of that is part of the £450,000.

That's 10,000 paying customers a month on top of season tickets for the next 2 months to pay the tax bill. 4,000 a game?

[tmesis]

So basically, and, I'm just using very rough calculations to look at a ball park figure, our tax liability on a monthly wage bill of £450,000 (including all staff), is maybe in the region of £150k-£200k? I appreciate the bulk of that is part of the £450,000.

That's 10,000 paying customers a month on top of season tickets for the next 2 months to pay the tax bill. 4,000 a game?

I guess it depends how our other income in received - one big lump at the start/end of the season, or every month?