How hard is running a football club?

[WestYorksRoyal]

During our recent travails, I've become a bit of a nerd for football pods. Price of football, ex players, ex managers, take your pick.

Those who have had success in the game all have the same advice:

1) Get good business people running the business side

2) Get good footballing people running the football side

3) Ensure you recruit decent people who respect each other (I.e., no dickheads).

Of course for the people on the ground it's not easy. Scouting is skilled work, coaching is skilled work. But for an owner, surely it is easy? Appoint the right directors to do the hard shit for you, and put governance structures in place as you did in your previous business career.

Why is L1 a graveyard full of badly run clubs like us? Why do so many clubs go to shit?

[traff]

Easy when the right people are in the right roles, same as many a well-run business.
Unfortunately, many of the people who buy football clubs are very rich people from outside the game whose egos and narcissistic personalities mean that all that is ignored and they screw it up to feed their hubris.
A Tony Bloom or a SJM seem very few and far between these days.
Hate to sound Xenophobic but lots of foreign owners see football as a way to gain notoriety or money without caring about the soul of what created these clubs in the first place.

[Lower West]

The amounts of money involved these days has fundamentally changed the sport. I know a lot of people that have turned their backs on the higher leagues. Returned to grass roots where clubs are an integral part of the community 24/7. Not just 23 match days a year. Far cheaper to watch as well.

[Snowflake Royal]

During our recent travails, I've become a bit of a nerd for football pods. Price of football, ex players, ex managers, take your pick.

Those who have had success in the game all have the same advice:

1) Get good business people running the business side

2) Get good footballing people running the football side

3) Ensure you recruit decent people who respect each other (I.e., no dickheads).

Of course for the people on the ground it's not easy. Scouting is skilled work, coaching is skilled work. But for an owner, surely it is easy? Appoint the right directors to do the hard shit for you, and put governance structures in place as you did in your previous business career.

Why is L1 a graveyard full of badly run clubs like us? Why do so many clubs go to shit?

Because the majority of clubs behave and have financials that essentially mean running on a sound business model is very very difficult. Everyone is competing for how far beyond their means they can spend, so good business people take one look and avoid, for the most part.

[Forbury Lion]

During our recent travails, I've become a bit of a nerd for football pods. Price of football, ex players, ex managers, take your pick.

Those who have had success in the game all have the same advice:

1) Get good business people running the business side

2) Get good footballing people running the football side

3) Ensure you recruit decent people who respect each other (I.e., no dickheads).

Of course for the people on the ground it's not easy. Scouting is skilled work, coaching is skilled work. But for an owner, surely it is easy? Appoint the right directors to do the hard shit for you, and put governance structures in place as you did in your previous business career.

Why is L1 a graveyard full of badly run clubs like us? Why do so many clubs go to shit?

Running a football club is easy, Running it well not always so easy.
The problem is that every club has a budget to lose so much money each month, That is not sustainable and needs to change but if you don't keep up the same level of investment as your rivals you will end up relegated and losing even more money.

The issue therefore is the funding, If an owner is funding the football clubs loses with profits from their other business interests, Then the fortunes of the club are linked to those industries. It's fair to say, Sir John sold Autotrader at the right time before the internet took over, Yes Autotrader did go digital, but many rivals also popped up. In fact, I'd argue one of the reasons Sir John sold the club was because of his other investments and the recession, Didn't he lose a load of cash on the Station Hill Development project? Is Hurst publishing still going strong in the age of ebooks and paperless offices?


Also, big up The Price of Football podcast, Football and Finance, the perfect mix for me as an Accountant. I particularly like all the fiddles listeners come up with to circumvent the Profit and Sustainability rules.

[Millsy]

I've played Championship Manager then Football Manager for years (pc and mobile) and I've never had issues. Ok it's as manager instead of owner and yes maybe doing it on a game might be a little different in some minor ways but the basics are the same and I've never had any problems at all.

[Green]

Just look at how many go into it and how many are ultimately successful. Compare that to many other industries and you'd have to say it's a bit of a mugs game.

[Forbury Lion]

I've played Championship Manager then Football Manager for years (pc and mobile) and I've never had issues. Ok it's as manager instead of owner and yes maybe doing it on a game might be a little different in some minor ways but the basics are the same and I've never had any problems at all.

Imagine the game belongs to a Chinese guy and your playing it on his computer only he doesn't pay the electricity bill on time and then tries to sell the monitor to Wycombe Wanderers mid game.

[Millsy]

I've played Championship Manager then Football Manager for years (pc and mobile) and I've never had issues. Ok it's as manager instead of owner and yes maybe doing it on a game might be a little different in some minor ways but the basics are the same and I've never had any problems at all.

Imagine the game belongs to a Chinese guy and your playing it on his computer only he doesn't pay the electricity bill on time and then tries to sell the monitor to Wycombe Wanderers mid game.

Funnily enough that exact scenario did actually happen to me, and to be fair I did struggle a little.

[Green]

The amounts of money involved these days has fundamentally changed the sport. I know a lot of people that have turned their backs on the higher leagues. Returned to grass roots where clubs are an integral part of the community 24/7. Not just 23 match days a year. Far cheaper to watch as well.

You say that but it has a trickle down effect, and lower leagues don't get the same advertising and tv money so often have to make up for it with higher gate prices.

Just had a quick look -
Barnet (Conference), £24
Welling United (Conference South) £17 (£16 in advance)
Dulwich Hamlet (Isthmian League Premier Division) £13
Hayes & Yeading (Southern Football league premier division) £12
We're Yeading. We're Yeading, We'll Kick your f*cking head in

You could argue premier league and championship is actually far better value for money given the standards of football involved.

[Dirk Gently]

The essential problem is the financial disparity, even within the same leagues. You have teams with the budget of Birmingham and teams with the budget of Crawley and Exeter (who are Trust owned) all competing for the same prize.

For those who don't understand financial restraint or don't have the knowledge of how football actually works, the temptation is to believe "spend enough money and you'll win the league" - and many foreign owners have been more or less told just that by agents.

But while there are only three promotion places and more than three teams chasing them that's a recipe for disaster. And the more you chase the dream and fail, the worse everything becomes

But to answer the initial question, as I am tangentially involved in the running of a football club - it's f*cking difficult.

If you're a club that doesn't have the riches of Premier League TV money, there are so many financial demands (especially from fans who just want success whatever the cost), so many problems and so many variables that it's a nightmare.

[Green]

But to answer the initial question, as I am tangentially involved in the running of a football club - it's f*cking difficult.

If you're a club that doesn't have the riches of Premier League TV money, there are so many financial demands (especially from fans who just want success whatever the cost), so many problems and so many variables that it's a nightmare.

Do you ever find yourself asking "Why do I bother"?

[Dirk Gently]

But to answer the initial question, as I am tangentially involved in the running of a football club - it's f*cking difficult.

If you're a club that doesn't have the riches of Premier League TV money, there are so many financial demands (especially from fans who just want success whatever the cost), so many problems and so many variables that it's a nightmare.

Do you ever find yourself asking "Why do I bother"?

All the time, especially at the moment. It's a whole load of work with bugger all reward - and like most things in life you're continually up against all sorts of vested interests and naysayers, fragile or over-inflated egos and grown-ups acting like 8-year-olds.

But it's what I believe in, and I have a vision of what can be, so I stick it out.

[WestYorksRoyal]

But to answer the initial question, as I am tangentially involved in the running of a football club - it's f*cking difficult.

If you're a club that doesn't have the riches of Premier League TV money, there are so many financial demands (especially from fans who just want success whatever the cost), so many problems and so many variables that it's a nightmare.

Do you ever find yourself asking "Why do I bother"?

All the time, especially at the moment. It's a whole load of work with bugger all reward - and like most things in life you're continually up against all sorts of vested interests and naysayers, fragile or over-inflated egos and grown-ups acting like 8-year-olds.

But it's what I believe in, and I have a vision of what can be, so I stick it out.

Not denying it's difficult for the guys running the club, but how many owners actually do this? Just trust good people, set them budgets and parameters to give them stability and it should be fine.

Obviously football is risky business, the difference between success and failure can be a post width. But even then, if an owner is transparent with their team how much money they are willing to invest and put at risk, it's up to them to give the club the best chance.

Failure is normally derived through ego. Getting involved above your head, thinking you can quickly throw money at it without trusting experts. It seems the playbook has been seen over and over again.

[Dirk Gently]

Do you ever find yourself asking "Why do I bother"?

All the time, especially at the moment. It's a whole load of work with bugger all reward - and like most things in life you're continually up against all sorts of vested interests and naysayers, fragile or over-inflated egos and grown-ups acting like 8-year-olds.

But it's what I believe in, and I have a vision of what can be, so I stick it out.

Not denying it's difficult for the guys running the club, but how many owners actually do this? Just trust good people, set them budgets and parameters to give them stability and it should be fine.

Obviously football is risky business, the difference between success and failure can be a post width. But even then, if an owner is transparent with their team how much money they are willing to invest and put at risk, it's up to them to give the club the best chance.

Failure is normally derived through ego. Getting involved above your head, thinking you can quickly throw money at it without trusting experts. It seems the playbook has been seen over and over again.

How do you know they're good people?

And how do you set a budget and stick to it? What if your main striker and first choice 'keeper get season-long injuries in the pre-season?

If you budget to get knocked out of the first round of every cup and finish one place above relegation, the odds are you'll achive that because you'll be operating on a shoestring all season. But budget for a certain level of success and fail to meet that and then you're knackered.

[Clyde1998]

The amounts of money involved these days has fundamentally changed the sport. I know a lot of people that have turned their backs on the higher leagues. Returned to grass roots where clubs are an integral part of the community 24/7. Not just 23 match days a year. Far cheaper to watch as well.

You say that but it has a trickle down effect, and lower leagues don't get the same advertising and tv money so often have to make up for it with higher gate prices.

Just had a quick look -
Barnet (Conference), £24
Welling United (Conference South) £17 (£16 in advance)
Dulwich Hamlet (Isthmian League Premier Division) £13
Hayes & Yeading (Southern Football league premier division) £12
We're Yeading. We're Yeading, We'll Kick your f*cking head in

You could argue premier league and championship is actually far better value for money given the standards of football involved.

Yeah. Ticket prices seem to be fairly inflexible outside the Premier League, possibly as the match day costs tend to stay the same regardless of division and other revenue streams are lower.

I found a forum post about the running costs of Halifax was £150,000 p/m with the club getting a profit of £13,000 per home game. From what I can find out their ticket prices were £21 for adults at the time and are playing National League football (Halifax are full-time).

Annualised that's £1.8m in running costs and £325k in match day profits (based on 25 matches) - I don't know if those running costs include matchday costs. Regardless, over £1m still has to be made up from sponsorship, prize money, player sales, etc. each season just to break even.

According to The Athletic, the playing budget is typically around £700k for a bottom end side, although top clubs can be nearer £1.5m and Wrexham was up to £3.5m. Dover supposedly got relegated on a playing budget of £700k and the playing budget in the National League regional division is between £350k to £400k (although I believe Dover were part-time in the National League).

Essentially ticket prices are what they are to give the club a chance of breaking even.

[Snowflake Royal]

Do you ever find yourself asking "Why do I bother"?

All the time, especially at the moment. It's a whole load of work with bugger all reward - and like most things in life you're continually up against all sorts of vested interests and naysayers, fragile or over-inflated egos and grown-ups acting like 8-year-olds.

But it's what I believe in, and I have a vision of what can be, so I stick it out.

Not denying it's difficult for the guys running the club, but how many owners actually do this? Just trust good people, set them budgets and parameters to give them stability and it should be fine.

Obviously football is risky business, the difference between success and failure can be a post width. But even then, if an owner is transparent with their team how much money they are willing to invest and put at risk, it's up to them to give the club the best chance.

Failure is normally derived through ego. Getting involved above your head, thinking you can quickly throw money at it without trusting experts. It seems the playbook has been seen over and over again.

In the evolutionary arms racevof football, playing by the rules and within your means is a disadvantage.

Until there aren't at least three clubs for every promotion place throwing that out the window, you have to be exceptional to make it work and its not a way to sustained success

[Forbury Lion]

Premier League clubs looking to rinse Disabled supporters now, both on ticket prices and parking charges. Man Utd justified it by stating that they had spoken with disabled supporters organisations and they said they didn't want to be treated like charity cases, just like normal fans..... I think that may have been taken out of context and used to retrospectively justify this.

[SCIAG]

Let's imagine a world where every football club is competently run.

In theory that means at our level you have a 3/24 (1 in chance of going up, and a 4/24 (1 in 6) chance of going down.

The problem is that more than 1 in 8 clubs would like to go up, and fewer than 1 in 6 clubs would be OK with relegation. So even well-run clubs would be failing to achieve their goals.

Currently, of course, most clubs are badly run (for at least some value of "badly"). Clubs like Brentford and Brighton have taken advantage of this, and by running themselves well have managed to achieve persistent success. But if every club was run competently, then they'd all be pursuing similar recruitment strategies, and so that recruitment strategy would no longer provide an advantage. It would also become harder to appoint the best directors of football or whatever underappreciated backroom role actually makes a difference.

We were one of the first clubs, certainly at Football League level, to take Sports Science seriously.Can't remember what the name of the bloke we hired was but I think he left in 2004-ish. But these days every club at our level has multiple sports scientists, so it's no longer an advantage.

Identifying where you can have an advantage is difficult, and the easiest way is "spend slightly more on a striker and hope he scores enough goals to get you promoted".

tl;dr - doing good things is only an effective strategy if nobody else is doing good things.

[Elm Park Kid]

Say that one of us won £100m on Euromillions, the Couhig deals falls through and it's a case of us buying the club or it going bankrupt.

Even out of administration you have to spend something like £30m to buy the club, stadium and training ground.

You're then presented with the current running costs which require you to put in another £10m a year to break even.

Would you then just appoint business and football experts and step away and let them get on with it? I'd argue that that's a harder proposition than it sounds. You've invested a lot of money into a club that you have a lot of passion and ideas for. Do you not want to be involved in at least some of the decision making? Maybe you love an old manager and want to bring him in, over the head of your director of football. Maybe you want to freeze season ticket prices or make them cheaper, and take that decision over your finance director. There's probably a thousand and one things where you would struggle to just sit on your hands and stay quiet about.

It would take a very patient and stoic person to do so.