What to do with the troublesome AM role?

[Snowflake Royal]

Elliott's failed to step up and is always injured. Doyle has failed to step up and has offered next to nothing.

What's the short term solution?

Rino, Savage
Wing?

I really don't see Wing performing at the tip of the spear so to speak, but others do, it seems?

Change of shape to play two upfront? Midfield is already porous. And who is that? Kelvin and MOM. Not really.

Who else can go in that 10 shaped hole?

Camara? Ehibhatiomhan?

Personally I'd stick Kyerewaa in that hole.

[Mid Sussex Royal]

I'd like to see what Starman can do further forward and drop Rino in where he is.

[Clyde1998]

I think it depends on what you want an AM to do. If you're looking for a 'do the unexpected' creative outlet, I don't really think we've really got one in the squad.

I could see something like having Ehibhatiomhan or O'Mahony playing in the second striker position behind a Marriott (or a proper centre-forward) would be the most effective thing for us - as it could easily shift into a 4-4-2 when attacking. Certainly wouldn't play them both together from the start of a match (unless Ehibhatiomhan was out wide).

That said, having a Wing or Savage playing AM would allow for us to shift into a more defensive 4-3-3. I'd possibly prefer it to be Savage, as he would have the energy to get up and down the park. Although I'm not sure we should be disrupting Savage at the moment with how he's playing.

I think the biggest issue with playing Kyerewaa there at the moment is our wide options seem to be fairly poor tbh, especially when compared to our alternative AM options, and he seems to be improving when playing wide. I wouldn't mind seeing Camara getting an opportunity there.

[leon]

Personally I'd stick Kyerewaa in that hole.

When has he ever demonstrated the passing ability, movement, decision making or temperament to play a number 10 role?

[Hound]

Doyle has arguably been the biggest disappointment of the season

He looks like he should be made for the role but just hasn’t performed

With the shape, Lane has ended up in that position a fair bit when attacking. So probably him if anyone. But I think we could change to 4-1-4-1 with Lane or Ritchie moving inside and Abrefa overlapping in possession

[Extended-Phenotype]

With an AM you want a creative player, who understands space, with a good pass and a decent record for scoring goals outside of the box. I’m not sure why we wouldn’t put Wing in there.

I get that the old/current idea is to have Wing deep so he can “quarterback” long passes into the final third, but that’s not really working anymore. It’s not only wasting creative talent in a defensive position, I don’t actually think Wing is very good defensively.

My guess is that Hunt brought Doyle in for AM and sure, if you HAD to play Wing, Savage and Doyle in the middle, Doyle in AM with Wing and Savage behind him is probably the best arrangement. But I don’t think it’s the best arrangement when you make these players droppable.

Firstly, Doyle doesn’t need to walk into the starting 11 on fire to be a success. Let him try to make his mark from the bench. God knows we need a bit of quality coming on later in the game. And to be honest, I’m not sure why Doyle can’t be played on the wing if we really want him on the pitch at the same time as our captain.

Secondly, we have better options for DM than Wing, that don’t have to be perfect. Elliot has a lot of athleticism and has done a job there before. Ritchie has an outstanding understanding of positioning. If you wanted more defensive options, we seem to be rather saturated with FBs and CBs - could Yiadom do a job there? Burns? Ahmed? Dorsett? Garcia? And if any of those are a bit radical, there’s the player absolutely nailed on for DM when he’s fit: Liam Fraser.

What seems to happen with Reading in every game I have watched this season, is that everything gets pressed into a scrap and Wing and Savage fall backwards leaving a void in the middle that the players we have been asking to control it simply fail to. So why NOT try out best player in this hole, and bring in a better defensive option to boot. It just seems so obvious.

[Snowflake Royal]

Personally I'd stick Kyerewaa in that hole.

When has he ever demonstrated the passing ability, movement, decision making or temperament to play a number 10 role?

Movement and temperement, every time he's played. He's one of the consistently few players who show for the ball, run all game and try to take people on and make things happen.

If he had the passing and decision making it wouldn't be a question.

[Snowflake Royal]

With an AM you want a creative player, who understands space, with a good pass and a decent record for scoring goals outside of the box. I’m not sure why we wouldn’t put Wing in there.

I get that the old/current idea is to have Wing deep so he can “quarterback” long passes into the final third, but that’s not really working anymore. It’s not only wasting creative talent in a defensive position, I don’t actually think Wing is very good defensively.

My guess is that Hunt brought Doyle in for AM and sure, if you HAD to play Wing, Savage and Doyle in the middle, Doyle in AM with Wing and Savage behind him is probably the best arrangement. But I don’t think it’s the best arrangement when you make these players droppable.

Firstly, Doyle doesn’t need to walk into the starting 11 on fire to be a success. Let him try to make his mark from the bench. God knows we need a bit of quality coming on later in the game. And to be honest, I’m not sure why Doyle can’t be played on the wing if we really want him on the pitch at the same time as our captain.

Secondly, we have better options for DM than Wing, that don’t have to be perfect. Elliot has a lot of athleticism and has done a job there before. Ritchie has an outstanding understanding of positioning. If you wanted more defensive options, we seem to be rather saturated with FBs and CBs - could Yiadom do a job there? Burns? Ahmed? Dorsett? Garcia? And if any of those are a bit radical, there’s the player absolutely nailed on for DM when he’s fit: Liam Fraser.

What seems to happen with Reading in every game I have watched this season, is that everything gets pressed into a scrap and Wing and Savage fall backwards leaving a void in the middle that the players we have been asking to control it simply fail to. So why NOT try out best player in this hole, and bring in a better defensive option to boot. It just seems so obvious.

On Doyle out wide, his previous club were pretty adamant that he's far better centrally. He played wide in his first game for us and was poor. Although, I guess that's consistent performaces for us in both positions. You want a winger to be able to go past someone, Doyle doesn't.

On Wing playing AM, my argument has always been that he doesn't have the legs to beat someone and get away from them. He can turn someone and find space for a pass deep, because the space is less congested and there's usually only one player pressing him. Move him forward and everywhere he turns there'll be someone else nearby.

Added to that he gets pretty much all his goals by lurking deep and either running in late or finding space outside the press and defensive line. He won't have that if he plays forward, he'll be in the press.

Maybe he adapts and makes it work, but I don't think its the no brainer many think it is.

As for DMs, why try to get creative with Yids or Ritchie (Mr yellow card) when you can just play Rino?

Or Sackey or Spencer or Borgnis?

[leon]

Personally I'd stick Kyerewaa in that hole.

When has he ever demonstrated the passing ability, movement, decision making or temperament to play a number 10 role?

Movement and temperement, every time he's played. He's one of the consistently few players who show for the ball, run all game and try to take people on and make things happen.

If he had the passing and decision making it wouldn't be a question.

you're describing a winger not a no 10.

[West F]

Do the sensible thing and don’t have one. If there is an insistence on playing a 4 3 3, play a flat three that pushes and drops, in and out of possession. When Knibbs was here, he actually played more of a free role off of Smith, more than as a creative number 10. He was never a midfield player and doesn’t have the game for it as Charlton have found out. When Elliot played last season in the midfield, he did so from a deeper position than that of a number 10. With the current squad as it is, the best option for the Knibbs ‘free role’ would be Marriott off of Ehibhatiomhan.
If it is clear that we don’t really have a creative and linking number 10 in the squad. Adapt, evolve and change.

[West F]

With an AM you want a creative player, who understands space, with a good pass and a decent record for scoring goals outside of the box. I’m not sure why we wouldn’t put Wing in there.

I get that the old/current idea is to have Wing deep so he can “quarterback” long passes into the final third, but that’s not really working anymore. It’s not only wasting creative talent in a defensive position, I don’t actually think Wing is very good defensively.

My guess is that Hunt brought Doyle in for AM and sure, if you HAD to play Wing, Savage and Doyle in the middle, Doyle in AM with Wing and Savage behind him is probably the best arrangement. But I don’t think it’s the best arrangement when you make these players droppable.

Firstly, Doyle doesn’t need to walk into the starting 11 on fire to be a success. Let him try to make his mark from the bench. God knows we need a bit of quality coming on later in the game. And to be honest, I’m not sure why Doyle can’t be played on the wing if we really want him on the pitch at the same time as our captain.

Secondly, we have better options for DM than Wing, that don’t have to be perfect. Elliot has a lot of athleticism and has done a job there before. Ritchie has an outstanding understanding of positioning. If you wanted more defensive options, we seem to be rather saturated with FBs and CBs - could Yiadom do a job there? Burns? Ahmed? Dorsett? Garcia? And if any of those are a bit radical, there’s the player absolutely nailed on for DM when he’s fit: Liam Fraser.

What seems to happen with Reading in every game I have watched this season, is that everything gets pressed into a scrap and Wing and Savage fall backwards leaving a void in the middle that the players we have been asking to control it simply fail to. So why NOT try out best player in this hole, and bring in a better defensive option to boot. It just seems so obvious.

On Doyle out wide, his previous club were pretty adamant that he's far better centrally. He played wide in his first game for us and was poor. Although, I guess that's consistent performaces for us in both positions. You want a winger to be able to go past someone, Doyle doesn't.

On Wing playing AM, my argument has always been that he doesn't have the legs to beat someone and get away from them. He can turn someone and find space for a pass deep, because the space is less congested and there's usually only one player pressing him. Move him forward and everywhere he turns there'll be someone else nearby.

Added to that he gets pretty much all his goals by lurking deep and either running in late or finding space outside the press and defensive line. He won't have that if he plays forward, he'll be in the press.

Maybe he adapts and makes it work, but I don't think its the no brainer many think it is.

As for DMs, why try to get creative with Yids or Ritchie (Mr yellow card) when you can just play Rino?

Or Sackey or Spencer or Borgnis?

As you say, Wing does not have the game to play ‘in the hole’. He would be swallowed up in it and you would lose so much more than you would gain. Sometimes I think that clubs, including managers get fixated on only playing one way. For us it seems, it is the inverted 4 3 3. When we actually have the players for a more effective 3 5 2.

[Fezza]

Slightly random choice for me, if Kelvin E is needed up top, probably Matt Ritchie; he has the intelligence to arrive at the right time, the range of passing and the close skills. Lane could get there in time, although his confidence (and fitness) looks shot.

In terms of what then happens with the right wing, I'd move Kelvin A up - he has excellent pace (something we lack in the main) and puts in a decent cross - this allows Yiadom back in.

I'd be sending all of our loan players back in January, bringing Kanu back if we felt we needed it! Ryan has enough about him to nail down LB.

[Hound]

Agree on the loans and would be looking to loan further players out as well - hopefully will give us the space to bring in a decent CF to play the system. Kelvin is always going to split opinions but he’s done reasonably well but still prefer him out wide

Not sure when Elliott is back fit (if ever) and he could be the #10 option when needed but I’d rather is change the formation and system. Wing isn’t a CAM nowadays. Savage better as a box to box

[South Coast Royal]

It cuts across the thread about what you hate about modern football that we are even talking about a midfielder being a DM , an AM or a 6 or an 8 or a 10.

IMHO if you set up with a midfield 3 then those 3 should be capable of performing both attacking and defensive roles.
One goes forward, one of the others drops back and they operate as a unit.

Take the current Prem. league leaders.
Yesterday they has Zubimendi, Rice and Eze and whereas Zubimendi might tend to play deepest the other two drop deeper and collect the ball and often end up in and around the opposition box.
Zubimendi has scored this season as well.
I don't like the exclusivity of a player being called defensive or attacking-it somehow gives them a let out if they are not doing one or other of those functions (e.g." I can't go forward as I am a defensive midfielder" or "my job is not to get back and defend as I am an attacking midfielder".)

Fluidity is what playing in midfield is all about and at the moment we kind of have a deep lying player in Wing who can't tackle, Savage who is wherever he feels like going but generally in the very middle of midfield plus AN other who, in the case of Doyle doesn't defend and in fact doesn't create much either.

Add in that we don't have much pace out wide nor a proper target man striker and it is no surprise that we are 3 places above the relegation places.

There are quite a few games before we can bring anybody new in and even then we tend to take a while to absorb players into the first team so Leam and his staff have got a big job on just to keep us out of those relegation places and the matter of an AM is just one of many issues to sort out out.

[Hound]

Tbf you’re talking about the best side in the country who have spent many years investing and building a squad to fit their managers vision. We’re not that. We’ve hardly got a Declan Rice or Eze knocking about the squad

Agree with some of your sentiments though - esp the attacking options. Hopefully fixed in Jan. still pretty irritated they neglected this in the summer and brought in so many players who just don’t fit or are substandard.

[Extended-Phenotype]

With an AM you want a creative player, who understands space, with a good pass and a decent record for scoring goals outside of the box. I’m not sure why we wouldn’t put Wing in there.

I get that the old/current idea is to have Wing deep so he can “quarterback” long passes into the final third, but that’s not really working anymore. It’s not only wasting creative talent in a defensive position, I don’t actually think Wing is very good defensively.

My guess is that Hunt brought Doyle in for AM and sure, if you HAD to play Wing, Savage and Doyle in the middle, Doyle in AM with Wing and Savage behind him is probably the best arrangement. But I don’t think it’s the best arrangement when you make these players droppable.

Firstly, Doyle doesn’t need to walk into the starting 11 on fire to be a success. Let him try to make his mark from the bench. God knows we need a bit of quality coming on later in the game. And to be honest, I’m not sure why Doyle can’t be played on the wing if we really want him on the pitch at the same time as our captain.

Secondly, we have better options for DM than Wing, that don’t have to be perfect. Elliot has a lot of athleticism and has done a job there before. Ritchie has an outstanding understanding of positioning. If you wanted more defensive options, we seem to be rather saturated with FBs and CBs - could Yiadom do a job there? Burns? Ahmed? Dorsett? Garcia? And if any of those are a bit radical, there’s the player absolutely nailed on for DM when he’s fit: Liam Fraser.

What seems to happen with Reading in every game I have watched this season, is that everything gets pressed into a scrap and Wing and Savage fall backwards leaving a void in the middle that the players we have been asking to control it simply fail to. So why NOT try out best player in this hole, and bring in a better defensive option to boot. It just seems so obvious.

On Doyle out wide, his previous club were pretty adamant that he's far better centrally. He played wide in his first game for us and was poor. Although, I guess that's consistent performaces for us in both positions. You want a winger to be able to go past someone, Doyle doesn't.

On Wing playing AM, my argument has always been that he doesn't have the legs to beat someone and get away from them. He can turn someone and find space for a pass deep, because the space is less congested and there's usually only one player pressing him. Move him forward and everywhere he turns there'll be someone else nearby.

Added to that he gets pretty much all his goals by lurking deep and either running in late or finding space outside the press and defensive line. He won't have that if he plays forward, he'll be in the press.

Maybe he adapts and makes it work, but I don't think its the no brainer many think it is.

As for DMs, why try to get creative with Yids or Ritchie (Mr yellow card) when you can just play Rino?

Or Sackey or Spencer or Borgnis?

Wing: My impression is that “Wing is good at X” because that’s what he has been asked to do. Yes he “likes” to lurk from deep because that’s where he is being played. I’m not saying you are wrong about him perhaps finding it difficult to turn a player, or to find space effectively in a more contested position, but I personally haven’t seen evidence of this which is where my curiosity comes from. I’d like to see us at least try it, as centre midfield can’t get any worse. At the moment, it’s like a big cartoon fight cloud in the middle of the pitch that we either try to play around or ping the ball in there and hope it randomly pings out again in a favourable direction. A more disciplined DM line with a better passer in front of them could fix the machine.

DMs: Absolutely those players you suggested could do a job there. My argument is playing Wing more advanced might not only improve our creativity in attack, but also improve our stability in the middle.

433: I think a more free-flowing central midfield worked when we had players that understood each other. Last season it just seemed like we were almost running on pure understanding. After significant changes to personnel, this understanding has vanished. I’m not saying it won’t return, but right now I think our best bet is to go with a more rigid, role-defined midfield where players don’t have to interpret so much what their team mate might do - they just do more or less what their role dictates.

I’m a fan of simplicity. I don’t think you improve a struggling team by adding rules, complexity and flexibility. I think you build expectation in each other through discipline. Back four, holding DMs for protection and turnover, someone in the hole, a bit of width and a striker to put chances away. From there, build in flexibility. Don’t start with it and expect everyone to immediately gel and know what each other is thinking.

I have seen a few comments that claim we’d have won in we had Marriott on the pitch. But to my mind, teams win games and strikers break ties. We might have won on Saturday if Marriott received the rare chances MOM/Kelvin did, but that would be papering over the cracks of a poor performance.

[Hound]

It’s always just pure speculation when people say ‘we’d have won if xxxx was on the pitch’

KE and Marriott are totally different players. Marriott probably wouldn’t have got the chances KE had - certainly not the first when he took it past the keeper - but may have got others instead

It’s all pretty meaningless really

[leon]

It’s always just pure speculation when people say ‘we’d have won if xxxx was on the pitch’

KE and Marriott are totally different players. Marriott probably wouldn’t have got the chances KE had - certainly not the first when he took it past the keeper - but may have got others instead

It’s all pretty meaningless really

he would have finished KE's chances.

[Forbury Lion]

Savage and Wing can rotate this role during the game as long as they have someone else to replace one of them in their current deeper midfield role.... hopefully Rino if he's as good or better than he was when he was here the first time (if he is, then it's surprising he didn't have better offers)

[Snowflake Royal]

When has he ever demonstrated the passing ability, movement, decision making or temperament to play a number 10 role?

Movement and temperement, every time he's played. He's one of the consistently few players who show for the ball, run all game and try to take people on and make things happen.

If he had the passing and decision making it wouldn't be a question.

you're describing a winger not a no 10.

You could say the same about Knibbs, with the difference being he's obviously a more polished player.

If you think showing for the ball, running and pressing and trying to take people on are solely the domain of wingers, I can only assume you've never watched football.