Ups & Downs 25/26

[Dirk Gently]

As an aside, the most ridiculous thing about it is that the Saints Junior Analyst who was the one in the bushes had gone into the adjoining country club and bought a drink using his own credit card - which is how he was identified and the whole set of charges started rolling.

If the precedent of the Canada Women's World Cup drone incident is followed, this kid plus Eckert and several others from Saints could well be banned from all football for a year.

[Dirk Gently]

No chance.

(Well, I'll be amazed if it does anyway!)

Remember the appeal isn't against the charge, which they've admitted, it's the severity of the punishment. I'm no lawyer but I can imagine a proper lawyer can make a reasonable argument that having your league season effectively thrown out for filming some training sessions is excessive.

I wonder if the playoffs are seen as a separate competition to the regular season. The playoffs are effectively a cup competition and teams do get thrown out for relatively minor offences. Take Swindon earlier this season in the Pizza Trophy or whatever it is now. They got kicked out for bringing on a sub who wasn't on the team sheet due to an admin error. Luton were reinstated and won the trophy.

A fine, unless it runs into the hundreds of millions will not be a deterrent due to the prize on offer.

The Athletic has been told that a key point in the EFL’s argument was for the play-offs to be regarded as a separate knockout competition, distinct from the league season. That helps explain the two separate punishments: expulsion from the play-offs and a points deduction for next season’s league campaign.

From this article, which is really helpful and objective : https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/729308 ... h-spygate/

[Scutterbucketz]

As an aside, the most ridiculous thing about it is that the Saints Junior Analyst who was the one in the bushes had gone into the adjoining country club and bought a drink using his own credit card - which is how he was identified and the whole set of charges started rolling.

If the precedent of the Canada Women's World Cup drone incident is followed, this kid plus Eckert and several others from Saints could well be banned from all football for a year.

Sounds like there’s some large GDPR rules been broken there. I do feel for the lad. He’ll never be able to show his face in Southampton again, but surely unless the police are involved you can’t start looking into peoples credit card details.

[Dirk Gently]

As an aside, the most ridiculous thing about it is that the Saints Junior Analyst who was the one in the bushes had gone into the adjoining country club and bought a drink using his own credit card - which is how he was identified and the whole set of charges started rolling.

If the precedent of the Canada Women's World Cup drone incident is followed, this kid plus Eckert and several others from Saints could well be banned from all football for a year.

Sounds like there’s some large GDPR rules been broken there. I do feel for the lad. He’ll never be able to show his face in Southampton again, but surely unless the police are involved you can’t start looking into peoples credit card details.

Don't know. The owner of the Golf Club, a Mr S Gibson of Middlesbrough, can surely validate the identity of anybody who enters his private property, especially the non-public areas.

Salt’s chosen vantage point, with a clear view of the two first-team pitches 100 or so yards away, was next to a road that snakes down from the five-star Rockcliffe Hall hotel to the golf course’s clubhouse. A metal farm gate next to the tree Salt hid behind carries the sign “Private property, authorised personnel only” but there is little privacy. No high fences or hedges. A clear, unbroken view.

All of the land — training ground, hotel and golf course — belongs to Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson and his Bulkhaul business partner Mike O’Neill but its public nature, welcoming hundreds of guests each day, allowed Salt access to the area where he was photographed.

And his name is all they needed to retrieve, not his full set of credit card details, so I would think this could easily be justified as valid from a GDPR point of view.

[SouthDownsRoyal]

Southampton fans are taking it well
https://x.com/PragmaticFrog/status/2056998568016204260

He’s not living up to his username

[katweslowski]

I know I will sound soft and a bit naieve, but I find the whole behaviour just really disappointing. I hate (but can just about get it) the cheating on the pitch, with the stupid simulation, holding the head, feigning an injury. That's in the game and refs largely know and ignore it too.

But this just seems so unsportsmanlike, just so corrupt, unethical and just unnecessary. I think as fans we should all just be really pretty oxf*rd off about it.

It's pathetic but it's also just dishonest to the very core.

[windermereROYAL]

If Saints win their appeal the final remains at 16.30pm, if they fail it moves to 15.30pm, can only assume that`s to accommodate large numbers of fans travelling from the north.

[Scutterbucketz]

As an aside, the most ridiculous thing about it is that the Saints Junior Analyst who was the one in the bushes had gone into the adjoining country club and bought a drink using his own credit card - which is how he was identified and the whole set of charges started rolling.

If the precedent of the Canada Women's World Cup drone incident is followed, this kid plus Eckert and several others from Saints could well be banned from all football for a year.

Sounds like there’s some large GDPR rules been broken there. I do feel for the lad. He’ll never be able to show his face in Southampton again, but surely unless the police are involved you can’t start looking into peoples credit card details.

Don't know. The owner of the Golf Club, a Mr S Gibson of Middlesbrough, can surely validate the identity of anybody who enters his private property, especially the non-public areas.

Salt’s chosen vantage point, with a clear view of the two first-team pitches 100 or so yards away, was next to a road that snakes down from the five-star Rockcliffe Hall hotel to the golf course’s clubhouse. A metal farm gate next to the tree Salt hid behind carries the sign “Private property, authorised personnel only” but there is little privacy. No high fences or hedges. A clear, unbroken view.

All of the land — training ground, hotel and golf course — belongs to Middlesbrough owner Steve Gibson and his Bulkhaul business partner Mike O’Neill but its public nature, welcoming hundreds of guests each day, allowed Salt access to the area where he was photographed.

And his name is all they needed to retrieve, not his full set of credit card details, so I would think this could easily be justified as valid from a GDPR point of view.

OIC.

Didn’t realise the golf club was owned by Gibson.

What a bunch of fukking amateurs

[Scutterbucketz]

I know I will sound soft and a bit naieve, but I find the whole behaviour just really disappointing. I hate (but can just about get it) the cheating on the pitch, with the stupid simulation, holding the head, feigning an injury. That's in the game and refs largely know and ignore it too.

But this just seems so unsportsmanlike, just so corrupt, unethical and just unnecessary. I think as fans we should all just be really pretty oxf*rd off about it.

It's pathetic but it's also just dishonest to the very core.

Yeah I’m with you. We’re always crying out for the EFL or PL to stand up and do something when teams cheat.

This is blatant rule breaking and whilst the punishment does sound heavy handed, fukk them.

Make an example of them. It won’t happen again.

[Stranded]

Yeah, no problem with this and wouldn't have if it were us doing it either.

You can't really find a club guilty of cheating and then let them go on to play for the right to be promoted out of your competition and the chance to earn stupid money and potentially never be seen again. As said, the play-offs is a separate competition to the league, it is a cup and if you are in a cup and break the rules, out you go.

The fact that they admitted to cheating twice more, suggests to me, that they did it more than twice and were hoping that "coming clean" would help their cause. It hasn't nor should it.

It will be interesting to see what can of worms this opens - if Hull lose, do they have grounds for a claim as they couldn't prepare properly. Do Wrexham have a claim given the expelled club took a spot they could otherwise have had - should they have been given a 1 off game v Boro for the right to play Hull? Obviously the short timelines meant the only real options were reinstate Boro or hand Hull promotion.

Could the EFL themselves sue Soton (if the punishment is upheld) if tickets end up unsold or for the additional cost of reselling tickets? If Soton fans who have bought tickets don't get their admin fees back, could then sue their own club to get that money back - should Soton cover the cost of booked travel?

[Dirk Gently]

Just read that when they spied on Ipswich, the spy did it in disguise - by putting on an Eastleigh shirt.

It's all so laughably amateur and naive they deserve absolutely everything this brings them - including being sued by the players. Put your bets on now for them being the next Leicester.

On the subject of the players, though - get them relegated from the PL with just 12 points, make a terrible start o the season that gets the manager sacked, then improve and get into the play-offs (not automatic) promotion, and then sue because you're the victims???

[Winston Biscuit]

[WestYorksRoyal]

So given they finished 9 points inside the play-offs and their deduction for the 2 regular league games was 4 points, I don't think the likes of Wrexham have any case.

I don't see how the appeal overturns this. The play offs are a separate knock out competition. You break the rules, you're out and the other team goes through. End of. You see teams thrown out of FA/EFL cups for relatively innocuous admin cock ups every couple of years, let alone intentional cheating.

[RFCMod]

As an aside, the most ridiculous thing about it is that the Saints Junior Analyst who was the one in the bushes had gone into the adjoining country club and bought a drink using his own credit card - which is how he was identified and the whole set of charges started rolling.

If the precedent of the Canada Women's World Cup drone incident is followed, this kid plus Eckert and several others from Saints could well be banned from all football for a year.

The lads from Sandhurst and apparently the directive came directly from Eckert

[Brum Royal]

The fact that they admitted to cheating twice more, suggests to me, that they did it more than twice and were hoping that "coming clean" would help their cause. It hasn't nor should it.

I wondered this, is it a case of "yes we cheated but it's of no benefit because here are other games we did it for and we didn't win them either" and let's not mention the other (eg) 5 games we did it for but we won them so we'll keep them quiet

[Dirk Gently]

The fact that they admitted to cheating twice more, suggests to me, that they did it more than twice and were hoping that "coming clean" would help their cause. It hasn't nor should it.

I wondered this, is it a case of "yes we cheated but it's of no benefit because here are other games we did it for and we didn't win them either" and let's not mention the other (eg) 5 games we did it for but we won them so we'll keep them quiet

Or a case of "we didn't know we weren’t allowed to - it was something we'd done before". Which, again, is absolutely no defence or excuse.

[katweslowski]

I would love if part of the appeal, is that if they lose, there can be additional sanctions - a bit like in criminal law.

So Southampton lose and their 4 points deduction is increased to 8 or something.

Does anyone know why they admitted the two other breaches? It seems an odd thing to do if they're not trying to appeal

[Royal Rother]

I would love if part of the appeal, is that if they lose, there can be additional sanctions - a bit like in criminal law.

So Southampton lose and their 4 points deduction is increased to 8 or something.

Does anyone know why they admitted the two other breaches? It seems an odd thing to do if they're not trying to appeal

The implication in an article I read was that when Oxford and Ipswich read about this event, they decided to report what had happened in their cases. Why they didn't at the time I don't know, but maybe they had "filed it away" as something weird that happened, then realised it was just before their games v Southampton - maybe it was the same guy wot did it.

Guess it will all come out at some point in the next week or so.

[Dirk Gently]

I'd read that the lad's phone was examined by Southampton's legal team who saw the videos of the other spying so they found out that way, not by the club coming clean to them - buy why they decided to declare it I'm not sure.

But also :

One of the key revelations at Tuesday’s hearing was the WhatsApp messages sent by Eckert to his analysts that people with knowledge of proceedings said were particularly damaging to Southampton’s case.

Two of the club’s analysts gave evidence at the hearing in which they expressed remorse for their actions but said they were pushed into the spying trips. In his evidence, Eckert — who has spent most of his coaching career in Germany — claimed he was not aware that such behaviour was against the rules in England as it was widespread in European football.

The hearing was told that Eckert had sent people to spy on fellow Championship sides Oxford and Ipswich, but had been displeased with the quality of their findings. In the case of Ipswich, the subterfuge extended to using kit worn by Eastleigh, whose Hampshire training ground was hosting Southampton’s opponents.

So maybe damage limitation - they were sure these other instances would come out anyway, which would be far more damaging than disclosing it up front as a mea culpa.

[Beaulux]

Ok I can now see that Saints have got what they deserved ( appeal notwithstanding). I originally thought the punishment was too severe. It is a massive punishment nevertheless, both financially and for next season, but also for the reputation of the club. Definitely a warning to other clubs.

Of course, what they did was stupid, but I cannot see how that much useful info could ever be gleaned by such subterfuge.