Our defence.

[Horsham Royal]

Have we got a specialist defence coach these days?
Was O'Shea ever replaced?

[tidus_mi2]

I absolutely think Lumley is part of the goals conceded problem, he's just not a very good goalkeeper, not even average, he ranks amongst the lowest when it comes to save % which to me, is the biggest marker of a good goalkeeper. Everyone below him has played at least 10 less games as well, suggesting they've been dropped but I don't know enough about those teams to confirm.

The defence needs wholesale changes in the summer, but I think part of the problem is playing square pegs in round holes, Hoilett shouldn't be playing RWB, Yiadom shouldn't be playing CB, Holmes and McIntyre shouldn't be playing as full backs.

If we're going to look at someone in the summer what about the Rotherham goalkeeper Johansson if they go down? Most shots faced this season, 2nd highest save % so it would seem there is something about him but it looks like he's under contract until 2026.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

I absolutely think Lumley is part of the goals conceded problem, he's just not a very good goalkeeper, not even average, he ranks amongst the lowest when it comes to save % which to me, is the biggest marker of a good goalkeeper. Everyone below him has played at least 10 less games as well, suggesting they've been dropped but I don't know enough about those teams to confirm.

The defence needs wholesale changes in the summer, but I think part of the problem is playing square pegs in round wholes, Hoilett shouldn't be playing RWB, Yiadom shouldn't be playing CB, Holmes and McIntyre shouldn't be playing as full backs.

If we're going to look at someone in the summer what about the Rotherham goalkeeper Johansson if they go down? Most shots faced this season, 2nd highest save % so it would seem there is something about him but it looks like he's under contract until 2026.

My thoughts were with Johansson as well, think he has all the makings of a really good goalkeeper but he has just recently signed a new deal, but if Rotherham do go down that might significantly reduce his asking price as well. The question would be do we want to pay for a new goalkeeper when there are several other decent goalkeepers available on a free in the summer.

Shot quality to me would indicate how good a goalkeeper is, although I believe Lumley was ranked (one of) the lowest here as well. He isn't fantastic, but I'd say he's pretty average and decent enough for us. He's been an improvement on Southwood anyway which is the first step and, given our circumstances, we were never going to recruit anybody of real quality. But he's done a decent enough job for me and seems to have got better as the season has gone on.

[Millsy]

I absolutely think Lumley is part of the goals conceded problem, he's just not a very good goalkeeper, not even average, he ranks amongst the lowest when it comes to save % which to me, is the biggest marker of a good goalkeeper. Everyone below him has played at least 10 less games as well, suggesting they've been dropped but I don't know enough about those teams to confirm.

That's why I was anti-Lumley, arguing we don't want an average keeper we need an excellent keeper (eg Martinez type), whatever the cost.

But he's here now and I don't think he's awful though, although I may be wrong. Either way I think the ongoing keeper issues are merely a distraction from what has been the elephant in the room: i.e our defence.

When theyr'e dicking around passing it to the opposition, not closing down players, not marking players properly, out of position etc etc etc you get a shitload of shots the keeper has no chance with. I complained about every shit keeper we've had recently, but bar the Game of Errors, I genuinely very rarely if ever think "Lumley should've done better with that", and bear in mind I'm itching to gloat again that we should never have signed him!!! It's always a case of, well he had no chance but the defence definitely should have done better.

I wonder if that's messing up his stats.

Totally agree about the holes and pegs too btw.

[Hound]

Tbf we’ve no need to play players out of position. That’s ince’s choice atm

[Snowflake Royal]

Weird people aren't including Holmes, who has not only been one of our standout defenders, but standout players full stop.

McIntyre and Holmes are both good enough, but both need someone with pace alongside them.

Yiadom is ok. Lumley is ok.

Dann, Sarr and Rahman are simply not up to it.

Moore is not even worth mentioning.


Midfield is also very hit and miss. If you get overrun in midfield defence will struggle. If you don’t carry a threat, defence will often struggle.

This is a problem for the summer when we can begin properly building a side again, with something other than everyone else's leavings. There's no crisis or big action needed now.

[Coppells Lost Coat]

It smacks that Ince doesn't see the defence as the problem - constantly chopping the front line up but its always the same defenders, same Baba doing the bare minimum to get by. The same out of form, sluggish looking Hoilet at RWB. Yids, even though he has looked ok at CB he is still a Rb and fairly small, we are always hear fine margins wins you games, its these margins that automatically put us at a disadvantage.

What really frustrates me Ince brings on Dann instead of Mbengue, I have no idea what Dann has done in the past 18 months that puts him ahead of anyone (I think he done a cute pass once that lead to a goal)

[Notts Royal]

I think both Holmes and McIntyre are decent young players but they need to be playing alongside experienced and, just as importantly, very vocal team-mates. Personally I don't see any of our current experienced defenders doing enough talking and organising on the pitch. Regardless of what faults he might have (I don't think there are many), you would always see Liam Moore talking his fellow defenders, particularly the younger ones, through a game.

I agree with this. We seem weaker when they’re both in the team, 1 of them alongside an experienced pro in a 4-man defence would suit either better.

I originally thought TMac was the better player but Holmes seems to have surpassed him this season.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Thought it might be worth mentioning, P.Ince has previously referenced the culture of the club, to just sit off and defend in his post-match press conference against QPR and I'd imagine there would be similar thoughts after the Stoke game as well. Interestingly, the back 5 against Stoke was made up of players who were here and part of that culture Ince is referencing last season. The 5 against QPR, 4 were here last season, Sarr the only exception.

Maybe if you want to change culture, you need to try and change personnel. Obviously we can only work with what we've got and having players like Hutch consistently injured doesn't help, but that might be something in favour of the likes of Hutch, Mbengue, Sarr and NGW. We won't be able to get rid of it completely, but moving Yiadom to RWB and then having 3 of Holmes, Sarr, Hutch and Mbengue playing and NGW at LWB could possibly be a solution towards this cultural issue.

[Sutekh]

Lumley is a decent keeper, I would expect that the club will sign him permanently in the summer. Keeper stats for Reading (esp. last season, when you had the gormless Veljko tactics factor on top of everything) have been somewhat skewed by what takes to the field immediately in front of whoever is in goal. Last season it was a poor back 4 seemingly being told to fart about with ball as much as possible and to defend as deep as possible (esp. at set pieces) which was utterly clueless and helped absolutely nobody. This season the tactics are much improved in favour of those defending but the consistent quality is just not there. Yiadom is not a central defender, I’m not completely convinced by Holmes or McIntyre, Rahman is poor and Sarr, for some reason, just seems to be an accident waiting happen. To cap it all no-one has any pace which is what will help greatly improve things so a pacey centre back or even a pacey DM should be one of the priorities in the summer. In fact any player with a bit of pace should be of interest as that’s one thing the entire squad lacks - how many direct quick runs at opposition or into space do Reading players make in a game, after all pace is the one thing that scares the cr@p out of opponents these days. Once the club can get back to normal in the summer in the transfer market then we can see more readily what the management are all about and the club won’t just be left with just working out who is the best of the old, slow and dying or the young and untried. June and July should be very interesting months.

Presume there’s something in Rahman’s agreement that he has to play if he’s fit as NGW just seems so much better when he has got a game (plus he gives the option of a long throw though, for some reason, Reading seem averse to putting crosses into the box despite the likes of Carroll and Long often being in the same line up).

[RoyalBlue]

I think both Holmes and McIntyre are decent young players but they need to be playing alongside experienced and, just as importantly, very vocal team-mates. Personally I don't see any of our current experienced defenders doing enough talking and organising on the pitch. Regardless of what faults he might have (I don't think there are many), you would always see Liam Moore talking his fellow defenders, particularly the younger ones, through a game.

Agreed with the first bit. Holmes has become a more commanding figure but I’m still not sure he’s there yet to be the “main one”. I don’t think we should be lining up a back three with Yiadom, Holmes and McIntyre. I still think McIntyre can make a better midfielder. His defensive flaws, I.e backing off his man too much and poor positioning to counteract a lack of pace aren’t improving enough

Don’t think Moore is the answer mind. He’s got a history of being better next to a more experienced player (Morrison and McShane spring to mind here). Not sure he should be the organiser of the defence. Hutchinson fills that void well but he can’t stay fit

IIRC Moore was still the really vocal one in our defence even when Morrison & McShane were in the team with him. I remember several games (the atmosphere was completely dead so it made it easier to hear!) when he spent a lot of time talking a relatively inexperienced Tyler Blackett through the game.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Presume there’s something in Rahman’s agreement that he has to play if he’s fit as NGW just seems so much better when he has got a game (plus he gives the option of a long throw though, for some reason, Reading seem averse to putting crosses into the box despite the likes of Carroll and Long often being in the same line up).

I'm just wondering, what could this agreement actually be? I thought part of our EFL Business Plan was that we cannot agree any fee for players, including loan fees or clauses. Surely that means that we won't have to make a payment to Chelsea if we don't play Rahman in a certain amount of games because the EFL would have stepped in at that point? If it means that the club recall the player, then good because he's not exactly performing well and can give us more flexibility for another player.

I know it might mean damaging the relationship between ourselves and Chelsea but they aren't the only club with talented youngsters/players kicking about the PL. Miazga was a good player for us, but Rahman has been underwhelming. Do we really lose that much if that relationship was to break down due to a player underperforming for us?

[Franchise FC]

Presume there’s something in Rahman’s agreement that he has to play if he’s fit as NGW just seems so much better when he has got a game (plus he gives the option of a long throw though, for some reason, Reading seem averse to putting crosses into the box despite the likes of Carroll and Long often being in the same line up).

I'm just wondering, what could this agreement actually be? I thought part of our EFL Business Plan was that we cannot agree any fee for players, including loan fees or clauses. Surely that means that we won't have to make a payment to Chelsea if we don't play Rahman in a certain amount of games because the EFL would have stepped in at that point? If it means that the club recall the player, then good because he's not exactly performing well and can give us more flexibility for another player.

I know it might mean damaging the relationship between ourselves and Chelsea but they aren't the only club with talented youngsters/players kicking about the PL. Miazga was a good player for us, but Rahman has been underwhelming. Do we really lose that much if that relationship was to break down due to a player underperforming for us?

Chelsea will have a shedload of younger players with absolutely no chance of plying once they've finished their January spending.
Can't we just suggest a swap ? Joao Felix doesn't seem to be getting much game time

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Presume there’s something in Rahman’s agreement that he has to play if he’s fit as NGW just seems so much better when he has got a game (plus he gives the option of a long throw though, for some reason, Reading seem averse to putting crosses into the box despite the likes of Carroll and Long often being in the same line up).

I'm just wondering, what could this agreement actually be? I thought part of our EFL Business Plan was that we cannot agree any fee for players, including loan fees or clauses. Surely that means that we won't have to make a payment to Chelsea if we don't play Rahman in a certain amount of games because the EFL would have stepped in at that point? If it means that the club recall the player, then good because he's not exactly performing well and can give us more flexibility for another player.

I know it might mean damaging the relationship between ourselves and Chelsea but they aren't the only club with talented youngsters/players kicking about the PL. Miazga was a good player for us, but Rahman has been underwhelming. Do we really lose that much if that relationship was to break down due to a player underperforming for us?

Chelsea will have a shedload of younger players with absolutely no chance of plying once they've finished their January spending.
Can't we just suggest a swap ? Joao Felix doesn't seem to be getting much game time

Most of them end up getting released after several loan spells anyway that might be of use to us. I remember a one John Swift who we picked up for nothing (and then subsequently lost for nothing).

[Crowbar6753]

I think both Holmes and McIntyre are decent young players but they need to be playing alongside experienced and, just as importantly, very vocal team-mates. Personally I don't see any of our current experienced defenders doing enough talking and organising on the pitch. Regardless of what faults he might have (I don't think there are many), you would always see Liam Moore talking his fellow defenders, particularly the younger ones, through a game.

I agree with this. We seem weaker when they’re both in the team, 1 of them alongside an experienced pro in a 4-man defence would suit either better.

I originally thought TMac was the better player but Holmes seems to have surpassed him this season.

Maybe there's a mental issue here also. Maybe because we play 5 at the back it's easy to think "We'll be fine, we have an extra body in here, they'll pick him up" some times you can over complicate things.
I loved playing in a back four, the full backs pretty much did there thing which left the two CB's to communicate easily with each other. Keep things simple!!
The plus side of only having the four at the back is freeing up a player to bolster the attack which is something we have been lacking recently.
Loving the idea of having TMac as a holding midfielder....he's to lightweight for a CB. The one player we really miss and in my opinion is the role model for any decent Championship CB is "Jake Cooper". He's Tall, Physically imposing, is good on the ball and an amazing target man in the box!!
I remember watching him play for us away at Sheff Weds and he was so classy on the ball and cleaned up everything, and we all know what he can do in the box, remember those two headed goals against Norwich!!

[Millsy]

Agreed. I was gutted at losing Cooper.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

I think both Holmes and McIntyre are decent young players but they need to be playing alongside experienced and, just as importantly, very vocal team-mates. Personally I don't see any of our current experienced defenders doing enough talking and organising on the pitch. Regardless of what faults he might have (I don't think there are many), you would always see Liam Moore talking his fellow defenders, particularly the younger ones, through a game.

I agree with this. We seem weaker when they’re both in the team, 1 of them alongside an experienced pro in a 4-man defence would suit either better.

I originally thought TMac was the better player but Holmes seems to have surpassed him this season.

Maybe there's a mental issue here also. Maybe because we play 5 at the back it's easy to think "We'll be fine, we have an extra body in here, they'll pick him up" some times you can over complicate things.
I loved playing in a back four, the full backs pretty much did there thing which left the two CB's to communicate easily with each other. Keep things simple!!
The plus side of only having the four at the back is freeing up a player to bolster the attack which is something we have been lacking recently.
Loving the idea of having TMac as a holding midfielder....he's to lightweight for a CB. The one player we really miss and in my opinion is the role model for any decent Championship CB is "Jake Cooper". He's Tall, Physically imposing, is good on the ball and an amazing target man in the box!!
I remember watching him play for us away at Sheff Weds and he was so classy on the ball and cleaned up everything, and we all know what he can do in the box, remember those two headed goals against Norwich!!

I think switching back to a 4 could work. Just listened to an interesting piece by Sean Dyche on his time at Burnley and he said he used Jeff Hendrick as a 10 for his engine, creative pressing ability, creative runs from the front and a good eye for arriving in the box (also admitting that he and Jeff didn't think he scored as much as he should have). This was from the view of a defensive stand-point, but in terms of pressing from the front, being a better unit in midfield etc, I think it's something we could apply. Obviously Jeff's a fair bit older now.

That would then allow Loum and TMac to be our 2 sitters in midfield, protecting the defence, it means we could have some natural width higher up with Ince/Meite/Azeez and have a pick of our strikers from the front. Carroll for more direct balls, Long for the pressing aspect etc. It also might get a bit more out of Joao with players around him and having 2 sitting midfielders might mean more chance for NGW and a license to go forward, where his strengths are. Thinking of something like this:

Lumley
Yiadom Holmes Hutch(whoever) NGW
Loum McIntyre
Meite/Azeez Hendrick Ince
Carroll/Joao/Long

[Crowbar6753]

I agree with this. We seem weaker when they’re both in the team, 1 of them alongside an experienced pro in a 4-man defence would suit either better.

I originally thought TMac was the better player but Holmes seems to have surpassed him this season.

Maybe there's a mental issue here also. Maybe because we play 5 at the back it's easy to think "We'll be fine, we have an extra body in here, they'll pick him up" some times you can over complicate things.
I loved playing in a back four, the full backs pretty much did there thing which left the two CB's to communicate easily with each other. Keep things simple!!
The plus side of only having the four at the back is freeing up a player to bolster the attack which is something we have been lacking recently.
Loving the idea of having TMac as a holding midfielder....he's to lightweight for a CB. The one player we really miss and in my opinion is the role model for any decent Championship CB is "Jake Cooper". He's Tall, Physically imposing, is good on the ball and an amazing target man in the box!!
I remember watching him play for us away at Sheff Weds and he was so classy on the ball and cleaned up everything, and we all know what he can do in the box, remember those two headed goals against Norwich!!

I think switching back to a 4 could work. Just listened to an interesting piece by Sean Dyche on his time at Burnley and he said he used Jeff Hendrick as a 10 for his engine, creative pressing ability, creative runs from the front and a good eye for arriving in the box (also admitting that he and Jeff didn't think he scored as much as he should have). This was from the view of a defensive stand-point, but in terms of pressing from the front, being a better unit in midfield etc, I think it's something we could apply. Obviously Jeff's a fair bit older now.

That would then allow Loum and TMac to be our 2 sitters in midfield, protecting the defence, it means we could have some natural width higher up with Ince/Meite/Azeez and have a pick of our strikers from the front. Carroll for more direct balls, Long for the pressing aspect etc. It also might get a bit more out of Joao with players around him and having 2 sitting midfielders might mean more chance for NGW and a license to go forward, where his strengths are. Thinking of something like this:

Lumley
Yiadom Holmes Hutch(whoever) NGW
Loum McIntyre
Meite/Azeez Hendrick Ince
Carroll/Joao/Long

4-3-3
Lumley
Yids Holmes Sarr NGW (A back four!! nothing pretty, get rid up field or clear into touch)
TMac Loum (These two sitting in front of the back four giving protection when defending with license to move forward with the ball)
Hendrick (Link up man supporting the front three)
Meite Carroll Ince (Would play Meite & Ince as Inside Forwards & Carroll as the focal threat, this front three should be a handful for most defenses)

[Snowflake Royal]

Hendrick taking up Ince's position to push him out wide is one of the crazier ideas I've read on here.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Hendrick taking up Ince's position to push him out wide is one of the crazier ideas I've read on here.

Pushing the player into a position where his own Dad has said he is best? Yeah really daft.